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Author Topic: Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD  (Read 4918 times)

happyattacks

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« on: May 28, 2006, 12:37:44 PM »
This is more of a technical question, I suppose, but I'm sure the hard-core collectors have all done this already, but...

Was contemplating jumping into the new millenium and finally retiring the old VCR, especially in light of what's coming up this Wednesday... Now, My collection is very small, but now I'm looking for the best way to convert those old VHS's to DVD's. Are you better off to go with one of those DVDRecorder-VHS combo units, or is it just as well just hooking up the ol VCR into a stand-alone DVD recorder? Wasn't sure from a quality standpoint if it mattered or not, or if one way was better than the other.  If anyone has any reccomendations on brand etc, that would be great too.

Thanks for input!

Matt :)

MrBuddwing

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2006, 01:18:24 PM »
[quote name=\'happyattacks\' post=\'119644\' date=\'May 28 2006, 12:37 PM\']
This is more of a technical question, I suppose, but I'm sure the hard-core collectors have all done this already, but...

Was contemplating jumping into the new millenium and finally retiring the old VCR, especially in light of what's coming up this Wednesday... Now, My collection is very small, but now I'm looking for the best way to convert those old VHS's to DVD's. Are you better off to go with one of those DVDRecorder-VHS combo units, or is it just as well just hooking up the ol VCR into a stand-alone DVD recorder? Wasn't sure from a quality standpoint if it mattered or not, or if one way was better than the other.  If anyone has any reccomendations on brand etc, that would be great too.[/quote]

This doesn't answer your question, but since when has that stopped anybody in this forum? :)

I, too, am on the verge of leaping the great analog/digital divide. I'd love to convert my valued Hi-8 and VHS tapes to DVD-R, but I'm a bit perplexed by two basic things:

1. Apparently, DVDs are on their way out - technology marching forward, and all that. Which wouldn't necessarily bother me - I never threw away my vinyl phonograph records or quarter-inch magnetic audio recordings - but I'm a tad concerned about the technology becoming so obsolete in a relatively short time, and whether I would have easy access to that technology if my equipment were to break down. (Yeah, I know, go to eBay.)

2. My second, more major concern is: How long do burn-them-yourself DVDs last? The short-lived laserdisc revolution taught us the dangers of laser rot, but I'm worried about speculation that the DVDs you burn yourself may last only a decade or two before they start becoming unreadable. Something to do with the fact that do-it-yourself DVDs involve a heat process that converts dyes in the disk (this apparently is not an issue with professionally mastered DVDs).

As I'm sure any professional archivist would tell you, just because you convert your stuff to the latest thing doesn't mean you get rid of all the old stuff, because for all we know, the old stuff may hold up decades from now while the new stuff withers away in the meantime.

LocalH

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2006, 01:19:52 PM »
Either way, you're limited more by the original tape quality than you are a composite interconnect, so it really doesn't matter. Just look for "time base correction" or something along those lines to help stabilize marginal videotapes before digitizing. There is a potential benefit to using a standalone VCR and DVD recorder - if you happen to have (or know anyone that has) a professional-level TBC sitting around, then you can use any random working VCR with any DVD recorder, to possible save a little money.
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clemon79

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2006, 02:26:14 PM »
[quote name=\'happyattacks\' post=\'119644\' date=\'May 28 2006, 09:37 AM\']
Now, My collection is very small, but now I'm looking for the best way to convert those old VHS's to DVD's.
[/quote]
Not a knock on the OP, who couldn't have known, but I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to do a little searching on the times in the past we've had this exact discussion and put 'em in the Archives? Might save some folks some effort in the future.
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Ian Wallis

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2006, 02:28:53 PM »
Quote
1. Apparently, DVDs are on their way out - technology marching forward, and all that.

Hmmm....first I've heard of that.  Are you talking about the upcoming Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs?  I think regular DVDs will be around a while yet, and once machines that only record in Blu-Ray and HD become the standard, from the research I've done they should still read your old DVDs.

Technology is always marching forward (sometimes too fast for some of us!), but if you keep waiting there'll always be something new on the horizon, and you have to jump in somewhere.

I'm planning to buy a stand-alone DVD player with a built in hard drive, and hook up my VCR to it using RCA cables.  I've also heard that Panasonic machines are probably the best - anyone here agree or disagree?

Quote
2. My second, more major concern is: How long do burn-them-yourself DVDs last?

If you use -R discs to burn, they burn once and should last (from what I've read) 20-25 years - as long as they're stored the right way.  If you use -RW discs, those are the ones with a short shelf-life.
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TV Favorites

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2006, 03:05:32 PM »
I have a Panasonic standalone recorder with Hard Drive that I hooked up to a VCR via the RCA cables.  I have had a few problems with it, but most were fixed with a firmware upgrade.

I think it is better to have a VCR and a DVD recorder rather than an "all-in-one" machine because from what I hear, if either part of it goes bad, the whole machine may no longer work.

dad1153

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2006, 03:38:08 PM »
I'm an expert at this because I work for a TV production company that does home video duplications/conversions to/from DVD on the side (to complement our production business as well as to make a few extra bucks on the side).  I've done tons of transfers from VHS to DVD (including my own stuff) over the past seven years, for myself as well as for clients and personal friends.  

If you know anybody that works at a video place that does duplications/DVD conversions I'd first try to ask them if they can do you the favor (either over an extended period of time or after hours).  They're the people that are more likely to have the three elements needed for a perfect VHS-to-DVD transfer: a professional playback unit, a Time-Base Corrector and a pro-sumer (or higher) DVD-recording device.  TBC's are ideal to smoth and clean the image a bit, but realistically it's a tool only hardcore videophiles or people in the industry could have access to.  So long as the VHS playback unit offers steady playback and the composite cables are solid (few VHS units have S-Video outputs, but if they had them I'd certainly go with those) the transfer shouldn't be a problem unless the material on the VHS is out-of-synch or badly recorded (flaws that will be magnified on the DVD recording and be permanent).  Another variable: audio.  If you can mix and equalize the audio to minimize hissing (which is present on almost any non-stereo VHS recording) you can end up with some pretty sweet sound.  I actually re-recorded a large number of DVD's from Adam Nedeff's collection in real-time because his discs would not duplicate into digital clones, and in the process I EQ'ed them to excellent results.  The '$100K Name That Tune w/Tom Kennedy' DVD's I made sound better than the originals I borrowed from Adam (and look about the same).  Then again, I used for playback a $1,200 S-VHS professional VHS deck that had a built-in TBC (like this one only mine is a Panasonic and has all kinds of bells & whistles: http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3989737).

Also remember that, like VHS, DVD has different speed recordings (1 hr, 2hr, 4hr, 6hr, etc.) but that if you try to record more than two hours on a DVD you're exceeding the format's ideal capacity and have to tolerate a noticeable drop-off in the quality of the moving picture (digital noise, artifacts and edge-enhancements galore).  If you have something that doesn't look so good on VHS then it doesn't make sense to transfer it to DVD at a 3/4/6 hr mode to make it lose even more quality; the more bad the original material the more reason to record it at either 1hr (XP mode, the highest-quality recording) or 2hr mode (SP, the still-acceptable 2 hr mode).  On the other hand B&W shows that aren't bad quality recordings (like, say, stuff recorded off of TV like 'What's My Line?') can be transferred to the DVD format's 4hr mode and it will still look fine.  DO NOT EVER RECORD ANYTHING IN THE 6 HR MODE ON A DVD (OR SOMETHING IN COLOR OR FAST-MOVING AT 4 HR MODE)[/u] or the primary benefit of the VHS-DVD transfer (the retention of the quality of the recorded image without further degradation after repeated use, unlike VHS which loses a little bit of its quality with every playback session).


[quote name=\'MrBuddwing\' post=\'119645\' date=\'May 28 2006, 01:18 PM\']
1. Apparently, DVDs are on their way out - technology marching forward, and all that. Which wouldn't necessarily bother me - I never threw away my vinyl phonograph records or quarter-inch magnetic audio recordings - but I'm a tad concerned about the technology becoming so obsolete in a relatively short time, and whether I would have easy access to that technology if my equipment were to break down. (Yeah, I know, go to eBay.)[/quote]

Consumer DVD recording technology has become standarized and come down so much in price that you'd be a fool not to utilize it now.  You said it yourself: just because you're updating your VHS collection to DVD doesn't mean you throw away the tapes; you're just transferring them to format that will not degrade from repeated use as quickly as analog videotapes.  We're at least at the halfway point of the DVD format's lifespan (and yes, you're coming a little late to the party) so recording/playback equipment will be with us at least until 2011 (if not longer).  DVD is the new VHS, and we're still using VHS long after that technology has been considered past its prime, right?  Better DVD recording technology is coming, but the one out right now is perfect for what we want to use it for: preserve barely-seen analog broadcasts that aren't readily available for purchase or broadcast.  DVD is also analog-friendly and compatible with most regular TV's and low-end HDTV's, which are still what is most prevalent in most American homes instead of the high-resolution HDTV monitors that degrade the standard analog video signal as badly as Silverman degraded gameshows during its tenure as network boss.  

[continued on post below]



[continued from post above]

DVD's are also not going anywhere because (1) HD-DVD & Blue Ray technology (the heir apparents to the format) are about to wage a battle for marketshare that will take a minimum of two years to clear things up (most consumers are planning to stick to DVD's), (2) the benefits of the two new formats will only be visible on material coded specifically to take advantage of higher display resolutions (network TV shows, live sporting events, pre-recorded HD-DVD/BR movies, etc.) and (3) there are no affordable HD-DVD/BR recording devices in the foreseeable future (heck, most HDTV videophiles are getting excited about the upcoming PlayStation 3 videogame system because it will offer a bare-bones BR playback unit for ONLY $600).  With a good source VHS deck and a good brand name stand-alone DVD recorder (I wouldn't go double-deck unless I was buying something over $200 to ensure quality) you're as golden as you'll be for the next few years unless you're willing to spring for thousands of dollars for HTPC and professional de-interlacers (a format using high-end PC drives/software to emulate analog signals or HD one's on HD displays)... but that's another thread entirely!

Quote
2. My second, more major concern is: How long do burn-them-yourself DVDs last? The short-lived laserdisc revolution taught us the dangers of laser rot, but I'm worried about speculation that the DVDs you burn yourself may last only a decade or two before they start becoming unreadable. Something to do with the fact that do-it-yourself DVDs involve a heat process that converts dyes in the disk (this apparently is not an issue with professionally mastered DVDs).

DVD's will last as long as you can handle them with care.  They're more fragile than VHS in that, if you scratch or damage the data portion of the disc, you might lose huge portions of the disc instead of just a few minutes of a VHS (which can be tossed and the broken videotape re-attached if you know what you're doing).  Also, the codec (i.e. coding algorythms) of cheaper DVD recording machines from the likes of Coby, Sansui (Adam Nedeff's recording brand of choice) or any cheap-ass Korean DVD recorder is prone to use software compression to try to minimize the cost of its components.  Brand-name recorders (Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer, etc.) are likely to use proprietary MPEG-2 coding mechanisms that, at least in practice (and at the expense of a few extra hundred bucks) result in a much reliable home DVD recording that is less prone to malfunction.  No home recorded DVD will work on every DVD playback unit on the market, but using a good DVD recorder ensures more compatibility and reliability than using a cheap-ass brand.

Just ask Adam! :-)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 03:37:29 PM by dad1153 »

clemon79

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2006, 03:46:03 PM »
Never mind what I said before, we need to archive THIS thread just to save that response. Excellent!
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happyattacks

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2006, 03:51:51 PM »
Amen - I think that about covers the issue, from begining to end. Now let's start the debate - Which is better, DVD-R or DVD+R? <grins> Just kidding.

dad1153

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2006, 04:00:37 PM »
Quote
I've also heard that Panasonic machines are probably the best - anyone here agree or disagree?

The TV production company I work for has six different DVD recorders: four DVD-R Panasonic (2001, 2003, 2004 and 2005 models, each costing $899 to 1,000 the years they were originally bought), a DVD-/DVD+RW Sony (2004 $799 model) and a $4,200 Pioneer unit that also authors/converts/plays back DVD-R to and from PAL/NTSC.  OK I lied, my company only has five DVD units; I bought the 2001 Panasonic model for $599 back in 2003 for my own personal use.  I still use it everyday to tape 'What's My Line?' episodes off of GSN as well as the 'Stargate' and 'Battlestar Galactica' shows on Sci-Fi (SP obviously).  Although we've had our fair share of returned and rejected DVD recordings the Panasonic units have been the one's that have worked best and been the more reliable.  Remember that this units do five or six DVD-R recordings (of various lengths and at different speeds) per day, so long-term reliability is important.  Panasonic is a little more expensive but, from someone that works with them all day at work and then comes home to use one everyday, it's the go-to brand for DVD recording IMHO!

Quote
Now let's start the debate - Which is better, DVD-R or DVD+R? <grins> Just kidding.

They're identical with a tiny edge of quality going to DVD+R, but it's like S-VHS and VHS.  S-VHS offers a marginal improvement over regular VHS, but VHS at SP (120 min.) speed is good-enough to make the benefits of S-VHS a necessity for only the hardest of hardcore videophiles.  Panasonic and Apple don't even bother to include DVD+R playback compatibility with its players/recorders.  Unless you have material recorded on DVD+R that you want to watch (which would need a readily available DVD player that plays both + and - R discs) I'd just use DVD-R discs and forget about DVD+R.  Benefits of +R don't outweigh the headaches of trying to explain the differences between the two to the average laymen (which I have to do day in and day out... yuck!).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 04:03:24 PM by dad1153 »

clemon79

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2006, 04:28:12 PM »
The problem that I've had with +R is that there are still a good bit of recorders out there that just don't like it. It's certainly better than it used to be, but I can stick a -R into pretty much anything in the world and it will almost always work. With +R it's enough of a crapshoot that I've pretty much abandoned it, and as dad1153 said, the difference in quality (which I don't even notice, but I'm not analyzing things frame-by-frame, either) isn't worth the potential compatibility headaches, to the point where I've pretty much abandoned +R.
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catnap1972

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2006, 05:19:43 PM »
[quote name=\'dad1153\' post=\'119665\' date=\'May 28 2006, 04:00 PM\']
Quote
I've also heard that Panasonic machines are probably the best - anyone here agree or disagree?

 Panasonic and Apple don't even bother to include DVD+R playback compatibility with its players/recorders.  
[/quote]

I don't know about Apple, but Panasonic machines (past 2004 or so) will definitely read and write DVD+R.

dad1153

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2006, 05:57:48 PM »
[quote name=\'catnap1972\' post=\'119667\' date=\'May 28 2006, 05:19 PM\']
I don't know about Apple, but Panasonic machines (past 2004 or so) will definitely read and write DVD+R.
[/quote]

Consumer players maybe, but I have yet to find a Panny DVD recorder that supports +R.  Apple DVD drives for its computers and laptops definitely do not record or support +R discs (unless those new Intel Core Duo chips do something I'm not aware of).

Blanquepage

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 06:05:19 PM »
Quote
Consumer players maybe, but I have yet to find a Panny DVD recorder that supports +R.

I sent  one of my contacts a DVD+R, the only format in which I can record, and it damn near broke his Panasonic.
Not only did it refuse to play, but the DVD tray wouldn't open. He had to take it to the shop just to get the thing open.

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dad1153

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Transferring Aging VHS Stuff to DVD
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 06:13:39 PM »
[quote name=\'Jimmy Fiono Coyne\' post=\'119671\' date=\'May 28 2006, 06:05 PM\']
I sent  one of my contacts a DVD+R, the only format in which I can record, and it damn near broke his Panasonic.  Not only did it refuse to play, but the DVD tray wouldn't open. He had to take it to the shop just to get the thing open.[/quote]

Same here, except I just unplug the DVD recorder and then plug it back.  One out of two times this will allow us to eject the disc; the other time we have to unscrew the top cover of the unit and remove the disc manually (something you shouldn't do unless professionals have taught you how).