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[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'140834\' date=\'Dec 17 2006, 12:45 PM\']
One of the problems with total conformity for the sake of a paycheck is that if the show is bad the paycheck will go away too.  I wish Aaron had been able to convince the producers to do Pyramid correctly.  The show might still be on today.
[/quote]
Well, yes, but Aaron was in a bad spot here. Either you do as your told, the show sucks, and you have no job, or you fight tooth and nail against the people who are insisting on making the show suck, they fire you, and you have no job. One scenario has you having no job later than the other one, so I understand where Aaron came from. It's just a bummer, is all.

[BrandonFG]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'140839\' date=\'Dec 17 2006, 04:44 PM\']
[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'140834\' date=\'Dec 17 2006, 12:45 PM\']
One of the problems with total conformity for the sake of a paycheck is that if the show is bad the paycheck will go away too.  I wish Aaron had been able to convince the producers to do Pyramid correctly.  The show might still be on today.
[/quote]
Well, yes, but Aaron was in a bad spot here. Either you do as your told, the show sucks, and you have no job, or you fight tooth and nail against the people who are insisting on making the show suck, they fire you, and you have no job. One scenario has you having no job later than the other one, so I understand where Aaron came from. It's just a bummer, is all.
[/quote]
The latter also sounds like a good way to make sure you don't get a TV job for a long time.

/Hey, I'd rather have a nice position for a bad show then not have a job at all.
//Could always lead to something else.

[davidhammett]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'140828\' date=\'Dec 17 2006, 02:50 PM\']
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'140822\' date=\'Dec 17 2006, 08:36 AM\']
David, polite as ever, is being a little circumspect, so let me be more blunt.  Aaron is one of us.  Aaron understands the way Pyramid should be played.  Aaron was following orders from the people who were signing his checks, which is a pretty smart way to stay employed.[/quote]
No, I realize this, and I'm probably being over-hard on him. (<Sean Connery> He said "hard on". </SC>) But it saddens me that the game-show climate is such that we can have one of our own on the inside and the result STILL ends up being utter crap.
[/quote]
It is sad, but not surprising when you consider what all ends up affecting the "game-show climate" you speak of.  Both Aaron Solomon and Mandel Ilagan were frequent contributors back in the "good-ole(?)" days of a.t.g-s (circa 1994-96), and now ten years later they've both had the opportunity to put their stamp on a variety of shows that have made it to air over the last half a dozen years or so.  (I'd include my name with theirs as well, but my work with the shows has been much more tangential than theirs.)  Some of the shows were successful, while others were not; some were critically acclaimed, while others were critically panned.  

No matter what, however, they made as best of an effort as they could under whatever circumstances they had to deal with on each show.  Their sensibilities for the genre come from their appreciation, admiration, and understanding of what has gone before.  Now, having been involved behind the scenes for a while, they're also very aware of what the modern genre is like, but as aficionados (aka "one of us") they will always take what's in the best interest of the game and the production to heart, despite whatever other influences might be to the contrary.

[chris319]

Aaron and Mandel are part of what I call the third generation of game show production people. The first generation started the genre on both radio and television, primarily in New York, in the '40s, '50s and '60s. The second generation learned game shows from the first generation while the major packagers were still in business. This would include several people who still work on TPIR. Many of these people, including yours truly, have left the business. The third generation would be anyone who entered the business in the early '90s or later, after the game show packagers of yesteryear sold their libraries and retired. The thrid generation has very little connection to the previous two generations, which may account for them repeating the same mistakes the first two generations learned not to make.

[uncamark]

Aaron should not have to regret his part on "Show Me the Money"--he wasn't the one who came up with the Million Dollar Dancers or Shatner as a game show host or the lousy contestants.  What he did was the best thing the show had for it.

[davidhammett]

[quote name=\'uncamark\' post=\'140881\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 12:27 PM\']
Aaron should not have to regret his part on "Show Me the Money"--he wasn't the one who came up with the Million Dollar Dancers or Shatner as a game show host or the lousy contestants.  What he did was the best thing the show had for it.
[/quote]
Amen to that.  When I went to a taping of SMTM, I came away with two positive reactions -- one was Shatner's campiness (much of which, sadly, got lost on the cutting room floor), and the other was the level of the questions.  I knew that the success of the show would be predicated on having challenging questions, and Aaron and his fellow writers rose to the challenge.  (And, if you knew Aaron worked on the show, you didn't have to ask who wrote the question about Maher and Estrada on "Pictionary.")

[TimK2003]

[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'140873\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 03:36 AM\']
Aaron and Mandel are part of what I call the third generation of game show production people. The first generation started the genre on both radio and television, primarily in New York, in the '40s, '50s and '60s. The second generation learned game shows from the first generation while the major packagers were still in business. This would include several people who still work on TPIR. Many of these people, including yours truly, have left the business. The third generation would be anyone who entered the business in the early '90s or later, after the game show packagers of yesteryear sold their libraries and retired. The thrid generation has very little connection to the previous two generations, which may account for them repeating the same mistakes the first two generations learned not to make.
[/quote]


Thank you, Chris.  I was trying to figure out the best way to explain that all weekend, but you hit it right on the head...


When the torch was passed from the first generation to the second generation, there were still about the same number of shows on each side of the transition -- which in those days was more than what you could count on your fingers and toes.

When going from the 2nd to 3rd generation, you could count all the shows on one hand, and the mentality
 changed from "let's make a tens of thousands of dollars for the production company", to "let's make a tens of thousands of dollars for each contestant".  And the lack of variety of shows has given these 3rd G'ers such a tunnel vision, they are afraid to go back to the days with simpler games, simpler sets, simpler rules, and simpler payoffs.

[BrandonFG]

[quote name=\'TimK2003\' post=\'140894\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 02:40 PM\']
When going from the 2nd to 3rd generation, you could count all the shows on one hand, and the mentality
 changed from "let's make a tens of thousands of dollars for the production company", to "let's make a tens of thousands of dollars for each contestant".  And the lack of variety of shows has given these 3rd G'ers such a tunnel vision, they are afraid to go back to the days with simpler games, simpler sets, simpler rules, and simpler payoffs.
[/quote]
So what would it take to go back to those days? Is someone gonna have to basically go out on a limb and try something new (actually old), and not care about trying to look like everyone else?

/It could happen.

Case in point, I thought H2 did an excellent job of keeping up with the times, but also having the look and feel of a traditional show. It also gave away an appropriate amount of money for a daily game show (except for that all-cash bonus round experiment). On the other hand, I think Feud tries way too hard to do the same thing.

/Signs in the audience?!

Honestly, I think now is the perfect time for an independent syndicator to take a chance on a new format (not a revival or overseas import). Independent meaning a company not unlike the one who syndicates "Cheaters" or "Eye for an Eye". Maybe exclusively offer it to the independents or UPN/WB castaways. Offer a small grand prize, and if it catches on, increase the budget. Yes, I'm probably dreaming.

[davidhammett]

[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'140873\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 02:36 AM\']
Aaron and Mandel are part of what I call the third generation of game show production people. The first generation started the genre on both radio and television, primarily in New York, in the '40s, '50s and '60s. The second generation learned game shows from the first generation while the major packagers were still in business. This would include several people who still work on TPIR. Many of these people, including yours truly, have left the business. The third generation would be anyone who entered the business in the early '90s or later, after the game show packagers of yesteryear sold their libraries and retired. The thrid generation has very little connection to the previous two generations, which may account for them repeating the same mistakes the first two generations learned not to make.
[/quote]
Although I don't disagree with Chris' assessment of the big picture, I'll just note that I'd prefer to think of Aaron and Mandel as third generation production people with second generation values.

[Ian Wallis]

And the lack of variety of shows has given these 3rd G'ers such a tunnel vision, they are afraid to go back to the days with simpler games, simpler sets, simpler rules, and simpler payoffs.

While I'd like to see that happen, would strong enough ratings be there if and when it did?  Once we've had this (almost) decade of potential million-dollar payouts, I doubt that networks would put a much lower-payout show on in primetime, so that means we have to go either back to network daytime, which isn't likely to happen, or syndication, which has been cool to new games in recent years.

[chris319]

I'd prefer to think of Aaron and Mandel as third generation production people with second generation values.

I'd like to think they, and you, picked up some of those sensibilities from the Chris Clementsons and Bob Bodens of the industry. Aaron was around when we were thrashing out some of the issues surrounding "Streaks", and all three of you attended our run-thrus at various times. Aaron has written for me in the past. He is a skilled writer, no question about it.

[TimK2003]

[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'140906\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 05:12 PM\']

And the lack of variety of shows has given these 3rd G'ers such a tunnel vision, they are afraid to go back to the days with simpler games, simpler sets, simpler rules, and simpler payoffs.

While I'd like to see that happen, would strong enough ratings be there if and when it did?  Once we've had this (almost) decade of potential million-dollar payouts, I doubt that networks would put a much lower-payout show on in primetime, so that means we have to go either back to network daytime, which isn't likely to happen, or syndication, which has been cool to new games in recent years.
[/quote]


If there was a 21st Century Herb Stempel among the current group of contestants out there that could prove the games are RRrrrrRRRIIIIGGGGGED, that would probably be the fastest way of putting game shows back into the realm of $10,000 or $25,000 top prizes again.

Otherwise, I don't think we can totally stop this "mega mo' money syndrome" the networks like to think is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  The cancellations of the last two short-lived shows, however may be starting to tell the nets that it's not all about the money.


/By the year 2039, $1 million prizes will be nothing...Compared to the $10 or $25 Million payoffs in the future!

[davidhammett]

[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'140908\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 04:20 PM\']

I'd prefer to think of Aaron and Mandel as third generation production people with second generation values.

I'd like to think they, and you, picked up some of those sensibilities from the Chris Clementsons and Bob Bodens of the industry. Aaron was around when we were thrashing out some of the issues surrounding "Streaks", and all three of you attended our run-thrus at various times. Aaron has written for me in the past. He is a skilled writer, no question about it.
[/quote]
There is no question that I have learned something from every person that I've ever known with some connection to the game show side of the industry... some more than others... and I have appreciated each of those experiences.  I suspect Aaron and Mandel would speak similarly.  

"Streaks" was indeed one of a handful of first experiences for me that served to reinforce the kind of deliberation that needed to go into a good game.  It was good to see the same sort of planning and forethought that I had put into my own classroom game projects, and I appreciate Chris and Brian for inviting me into that process.  Likewise, "Greed" was the first show I had the privilege of working with from its inception through to its final episode, and seeing that process all the way through taught me quite a lot about how it all works.  I will forever be indebted to Bob for his trust in my abilities, and the other projects that came about as a result.

[Clay Zambo]

[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'140908\' date=\'Dec 18 2006, 04:20 PM\']
 Aaron was around when we were thrashing out some of the issues surrounding "Streaks", and all three of you attended our run-thrus at various times. Aaron has written for me in the past. He is a skilled writer, no question about it.
[/quote]

He's a skilled writer, a damn smart bass player, and a fine host.  (I haven't seen him host a show, but I've been a guest at his house on many occasions.)

But it's this "Streaks" that has me curious.  This is a pilot?  A project that hasn't sold yet?

Do tell, please.  Such that you're permitted to, of course.

[chris319]

"Streaks" is a novel concept for a Q & A game conceived by Brian Hamburg and Jade Mills which I helped develop. We last made a demo tape of it in 1998. It's available.