Trading ettiquette, etc.

[tvmitch]

Wanted to open up a discussion regarding an experience I've just had in the trading world...excuse the long and rambling post, but I just want to make sure that my thoughts aren't completely out of whack.

I've been in the trading circuit for an awful long time, I believe just under 11 years. I started trading when the dark period was in its darkest (and am kicking myself for not getting more of that stuff on tape!). 99% of my trades who peruse this board (and those who don't) have gone smoothly for both parties, through all sorts of life events. And I enjoy keeping in contact with everyone as well - some great friendships here and across the waters have sprouted from throwing tapes in a mailer.

So. That brings us to the present day. Trading isn't as much a part of my life as it used to be, but I still enjoy striking up a trade every few weeks or so, and I also enjoy reaching out to new traders to help build their collections. I received an email from a guy who's been trading for at least a year. His collection is very interesting - lots of episodes of shows I only have one episode of, and so on - and I agree to strike up a trade by sending a list, which is quite an exhaustive list - about 15 hours or so.

On his rules page, he has many "rules," one of them being the seemingly arbitrary "I don't trade for more than 12 hours at any one time."

So I received an email from the trader before he even created his list, telling me in no short words that I would have to prune down my list by 3 hours. (Complete with the requisite frowny emoticon and the reason that "anything over 12 hours is too exhausting".) A couple emails back and forth, and things went downhill from there for various reasons and I don't think we'll be trading now, which is fine, because I want to enjoy the experience and not have to worry about someone who is going to be a pain in the rear about the trade from day one. But that "12 hour limit" sticks in my head. If I was approached by anyone who has been trading for a long time, they have a pretty neat collection, and they wanted to trade for 15 hours, I would be overjoyed. Right?

I do not mean to "out" this particular trader at all, and if I have because of this one policy, then so be it, because...well, I think it's ridiculous. But does anyone think that his argument is logical and wants to change my mind? Are limits something that's commonly in use nowadays, even with the advent of cheap-to-mail DVD recordables replacing VHS tapes? I thought this might make good discussion and would like everyone's thoughts.

[tvwxman]

If anything, there should be minimums....I've made trades for 4 eps to 40 eps (thanks Mitch, BTW!).... back in the VHS day (where some of us still are!), to make a trade for 2 or 3 eps on a tape where you could fit considerably more was, to me, silly.

On some traders websites that I persue from time to time, I've noticed that kids these days have some (to me) silly rules, but if that's how they're going to play, then fine... It's unfortunately half of their vote.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'mitchgroff\' post=\'151736\' date=\'May 8 2007, 05:38 AM\']
If I was approached by anyone who has been trading for a long time, they have a pretty neat collection, and they wanted to trade for 15 hours, I would be overjoyed. Right?
[/quote]
Ignoring your implication that you should receive special dispensation because you've been doing this a million years and your collection is "pretty neat," I see not one problem with this. If anything, he should be commended.

Consider that Mark Raby nutcase, who got so behind in his trades that he tried to fake his own death to weasel out of them. This guy doesn't want to get himself into that situation, so he's made it clear how deep he's willing to get into it. And that line appears to be two six-hour tapes. (Or six two-hour ones, or however many DVD's, or whatever the hell you guys do these days.)

You know as well as I do that if he doesn't say something now, some idiot WILL bug him to dub off the entirety of his collection, because we have people in this hobby who are ABSOLUTELY that clueless. So he's nipping that in the bud now. Can't blame him a bit.

So, let's say that he bends the rules for you and lets you do a fifteen-hour trade. You guys are a pretty tight group, and word gets around. Next thing you know, he has some jackbag beating down his door wanting to do 15 hours because "you let Mitch do 15 hours". And now his limit has all of a sudden become 15 hours.

He's setting a line, and sticking to it. And you're the one complaining because you failed to follow his requests for limits and he got a little irked?

I'm not saying there aren't some traders out there with some idiotic rules. Jesus Christ and Manischewitz, are there. (See that Q.T. guy and his asinine time-based rules.) But this isn't one of them.

[Ian Wallis]

Just to add my 2 cents:  I've also been at this 11 years, and although I don't have any "rules" posted on my site, I always prefer just to do 6 hours at once.  I find it much easier to find the time and to get it done in a timely manner.  

I've have done some occasional trades that are up to 12-hours (which is about 30 episodes, because up to 15 can fit on a tape), but I don't like to go much more than that if I can help it.

DVD is making things easier...I'm finding that these days, since many of my current trades are on disc, you can do trades of 4, 6, 8 hours, etc. depending on how many shows are agreed on.

[Matt Ottinger]

I personally find it a silly, arbitrary rule (12 hours is OK, but 15 is "exhausting"?), but on the other hand, it wouldn't bother me any.  If I had selected fifteen hours, and the guy wanted to just do twelve, my shoulders couldn't shrug any faster.  The fact that "things went downhill from there for various reasons" suggests that one or the other of you (or likely both) took the whole process way too seriously, a fairly common problem with traders large and small.

No matter how goofy, people have the right to make up their own rules about how they're willing to trade, and it sounds like his rules were clear from the beginning, or certainly from early enough in the process as to not cause a problem.  To me, 'trading etiquette' says you either abide by those rules, politely ask for an exception, and/or politely decline the trade.

[TravisP]

I've been around the trading circuit for over four years now. All thanks to Mitch as he got me into game show trading by emailing me if I had any Millionaire episodes. It all started from there.

I don't have a limit in terms of what I get asked for. In the most cases I always ask the person on the other side of the trade in terms of hours. Back in the VHS days, for nearly all the previous trades I've gone for 16-20 hours (the most I did was 32 hours, which was my second ever trade). While in the DVD age I've been more of bending the rules slightly with a couple of traders (Mitch & Joe Raygor already know about this) I've been duplicating various DVDs (20 min job via the PC compared to 2-4 hours copying onto a DVD recorder) which featured either a collection of one programme or a pic and mix selection of programmes. However, I still take the time out to burn a traders selection onto DVD which, as before is usually around 16-20 hours. I don't mind if they ask for more hours but it's understandable it would take myself a longer time to record the extra programmes. Also I tend to be generous and send the odd bonus show here and there if there is any room left on a VHS/DVD.

I haven't been trading that much in the past couple of years (all thanks to my full-time job). However, I still find time to do the odd trade here and there. Referring back to limits, I did recieve one email back in January from a trader living in the country where his first want list consisted of 437 different episodes! Which converts to over 250 hours! I strictly told him no. Unfortunatly, most of the shows in his collection he already obtained from another local trader. Where I already got the shows from him directly.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'TravisP\' post=\'151768\' date=\'May 8 2007, 12:56 PM\']Unfortunatly most of the stuff he had he already obtained from another local trader from which I already got them from him.[/quote]
I could read that sentence for a week and it still wouldn't make any sense to me.

[TravisP]

I tend to have a bad habit of tying quickly and not proof-reading. lol

No doubt I will have traders from your side of the world. Knocking on my door to request episodes of the UK version of Pyramid.

[tvmitch]

Thanks for your comments everyone. My whole point is why make the point to squabble over only 3 extra hours, which isn't really all that much. Most people will vouch that I will might throw in 3 hours of bonuses for a trade on a normal basis.

However, Ian - Your point of sticking to 6 hours per trade is a fair idea from the standpoint of "I can get this done faster and start on the next one." I can agree with that idea, and that's the kind of statement I was looking for when I started the thread because I simply wouldn't have thought of that as a valid reason. I am usually of the thought of setting minimums for a trade, not maximums, as Matt S. said in the second post.

I'm used to trading with Travis and Chris P. for wholly excessive amounts of shows at a time, as I'm sure all three of us would admit...but this mainly stems from when it was cheaper to send one international package of 6 tapes rather than any smaller multiple.

Now - all that said, I'm not sure that the reason this trader picked "12 hours" as his max was for any of the reasons listed. Since I read that, I've been thinking it was a completely ridiculous statement, such as other rules on his rules page that reads something like "you must notify me of any quality issues that would grade lower than a B before our trade" (or I'll get my friends, jump in some cars, and beat down your door) and "if there are any delays beyond two days, you must notify me right away," etc.

In the end, for me, it's a case of "just too much overhead crap" plus a lot of headaches for a regular tape trade. Lately, a few too many trades for me have had these little caveats. I appreciate everyone's input so far.

[TravisP]

[quote name=\'mitchgroff\' post=\'151774\' date=\'May 8 2007, 12:24 PM\']I've been thinking it was a completely ridiculous statement, such as other rules on his rules page that reads something like "you must notify me of any quality issues that would grade lower than a B before our trade" (or I'll get my friends, jump in some cars, and beat down your door) and "if there are any delays beyond two days, you must notify me right away," etc.[/quote]

Hold old is this person? I know you had your own page of rules some time ago but no where as as silly as you say it is.

[tvmitch]

[quote name=\'TravisP\' post=\'151775\' date=\'May 8 2007, 01:31 PM\']
Hold old is this person? I know you had your own page of rules some time ago but nothing as ridicolous as that.
[/quote]
I think he is probably in the mid-teenage years. I haven't asked him his age, although some of his emails have led me to believe that some of his limits might be enforced by his parents, or something like that.

Sure, I had my own rules page before as well...but most of what I had there boiled down to simple common sense spelled out mainly for those who haven't traded before.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'151767\' date=\'May 8 2007, 09:45 AM\']
I personally find it a silly, arbitrary rule (12 hours is OK, but 15 is "exhausting"?)
[/quote]
Okay, if 15 isn't "exhausing", then how about 18? That's just a little more, right? Then how about 21? 24? See where I'm going here?

You have to draw a line somewhere. He chose to draw it at 12. I just don't see why that's unreasonable.
[quote name=\'TravisP\' post=\'151768\' date=\'May 8 2007, 09:56 AM\']
I did recieve one email back in January from a trader living in the country where his first want list consisted of 437 different episodes!
[/quote]
The defense rests, Your Honor.
[quote name=\'mitchgroff\' post=\'151774\' date=\'May 8 2007, 10:24 AM\']
Now - all that said, I'm not sure that the reason this trader picked "12 hours" as his max was for any of the reasons listed. Since I read that, I've been thinking it was a completely ridiculous statement, such as other rules on his rules page that reads something like "you must notify me of any quality issues that would grade lower than a B before our trade" (or I'll get my friends, jump in some cars, and beat down your door) and "if there are any delays beyond two days, you must notify me right away," etc.
[/quote]
So, erm, vote with your wallet, as it were, and do business with someone else. Which it sounds like you did, but not before there was a lot of unnecessary back and forth.

(Why'd you even ask the question if you've already made your mind up about it?)

Trust me, if I had a rule like that, and you came to me and said "Yeah, but I've been doing this a million years and I have a great collection (hint: EVERYONE thinks their collection is great) and you should bend the rules for me," I would have ended the conversation a whole damn lot faster than you two apparently did.

[TravisP]

[quote name=\'mitchgroff\' post=\'151774\' date=\'May 8 2007, 12:24 PM\']
I'm used to trading with Travis and Chris P. for wholly excessive amounts of shows at a time, as I'm sure all three of us would admit...but this mainly stems from when it was cheaper to send one international package of 6 tapes rather than any smaller multiple.[/quote]

That's true. It all came down to the weight of the parcel back in the VHS days. I used to send three tapes to the US and Australia, where I would've paid £7 for one parcel. Comparing to sending three tapes as three seperate parcels would've cost me £3 each (£9 total). While each trade was a seasonal thing. As mentioned I tend to trade much less nowadays with work commitments etc... but still up for it.

You could say that thanks to myself (and other UK traders) we've open the floodgates to a whole world of new formats to the other side of the pond (Eggheads, Take It or Leave It, The Vault as a few examples). While offering landmarks on UK television (the 4th & 5th £1 Million winners on Millionaire and the first £250K winner on DoND)

I will say that with the major impact of DVD technology, postage has certaintly saved me a packet.

[tvmitch]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'151778\' date=\'May 8 2007, 01:48 PM\']
Trust me, if I had a rule like that, and you came to me and said "Yeah, but I've been doing this a million years and I have a great collection (hint: EVERYONE thinks their collection is great) and you should bend the rules for me," I would have ended the conversation a whole damn lot faster than you two apparently did.
[/quote]
I simply think it comes down to respect. I know that when I started to trade, I tried my best to respect those who were established. I know that I was called out several times, usually with a gentle nudge, for asking what I now realize are ridiculous requests from other folks...I just don't think these new kids are getting called out for it now.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'mitchgroff\' post=\'151774\' date=\'May 8 2007, 01:24 PM\']
Thanks for your comments everyone. My whole point is why make the point to squabble over only 3 extra hours, which isn't really all that much. [/quote]
Sounds like you're blaming him for the squabble, when you could just as easily have cut three hours from your want list.  That way you'd have twelve more hours of shows than you do now, and a lot less aggravation.  I'm still not seeing why that wasn't an option.

I didn't see it as much in your first message, but your subsequent responses in this thread really do have a tone of "I'm the veteran in this, he's the newbie, and he therefore needs to show me the respect to which I am undeniably entitled."  And again, I'm not seeing why his limit -- arbitrary or not -- should have anything to do with 'respect'.