GSN Scheduling: Pros and Cons

[Matt Ottinger]

I'm inclined to ask how FoF? and 1st season rehashes of Whammy got in there if it was weighted to what the serious fans wanted, but I won't......

If you had, the bottom-line answer keeps going back to the fact that this poll is UNSCIENTIFIC.  It doesn't MATTER that TJW was second, or that Whammy or Friend or Foe made the list.  

It's common sense that game show fans with internet savvy would be more likely to vote in a GSN on-line poll.   I also don't understand what makes you think it's so gosh-darned impossible that some serious fan may actually have LIKED FoF? and Whammy.

I got no problem with Boden. I don't like Cronin [or Belinkoff, for that matter] though. It's just me.

Well good.  As long as we know now that it's not personal or anything.

[PeterMarshallFan]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 08:40 PM\'] I also don't understand what makes you think it's so gosh-darned impossible that some serious fan may actually have LIKED FoF? and Whammy.
 [/quote]
 It's not impossible at all, but enough serious fans to put them in the higher up spots? I like W! season 2, but season 1 was awful [as was all of FOF?] But I can't speak for anyone but myself. That said, I was probably the only one who voted for \"Fantasy\" and \"Hollywood Connection.\" Shoot me.

But you're right. FoF was just a ratings gimmick anyway. [going off on a very bad tangent, maybe it was rigged and the TJW/TTD hours were the proverbial \"bone\" to the diehards... :-P]

[Jim]

One poster in this thread (possibly sarcastically) asked if any of us have ever been a Nielsen family.  Actually, I have been.  A while back I did a paper journal for Arbitron.  If I got paid (I can't remember) it was nominal.  What I found great, however, was something they wrote in the instructions - something I wholeheartedly believed - that with every item I wrote down I was helping let the network brass know what the public's preferences were.
  That said, if anybody can recreate what was done in the Danny DeVito movie \"The Ratings Game\" we might be able to get more BWO programming on.  Wouldn't it be cool if we all got diaries and Monday's headlines read \"4 a.m. 'Truth' tops Emmys and NFL combined\".  The GSN management, picking up The Hollywood Reporter, would fall out of their chairs.
  Also, for what it's worth, I never carry anything bigger than a $20.  I would be sick if I had a $100 bill in my pocket and it fell out.

[dzinkin]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 07:48 PM\'] Rest assured, it's just you. The point Matt is trying to make is that Cronin and Boden are made out here like they are trying to screw us, when in fact there is absolutely no financial or other benefit  from doing that.
 [/quote]
 Hell, if *anyone* could dislike Boden and Belinkoff enough to consider attributing the paucity of classics on GSN to some malice on their part, it'd be me -- and I still get emails from people who think Belinkoff demanded removal of most of the classics as revenge for getting exposed on ATGS.  My personal favorite is one (from an idiot who shall remain nameless) espousing the theory that if we'd just apologize to Belinkoff, the classics would reappear on the schedule in greater numbers.

Matt and Chris are right... this is a business decision, and nothing more.  I have zero respect for Boden and Belinkoff as human beings, and even *I'm* willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point; they'd have been bounced a long time ago, just as Fleming and Tauber were, if they didn't know how to program the network to reach the widest possible audience.

 - David

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'PeterMarshallFan\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 05:47 PM\'] But I can't speak for anyone but myself.
 [/quote]
 And here's your problem. For someone who can't speak for anyone but himself, you are certainly doing a lot of pointing to what other people have supposively said to defend your argument.

[whampyl03]

Well, for this firey debates sake, I'll toss out the FoF results, so I can still prove my point...

I'm going to bring some past history up here, you guys probably have it memorised, but I'll do it anyway...

Syndie TTD lasted for about 6 years...

Syndie TJW lasted for about 9 years...

Now, usually when a show lasts for that long, there must be SOMEBODY that was watching it.  Now, you can argue that maybe only Nielson homes and ONLY Nielson homes were the ones who tuned in, and were the only fans of the series, but I see that as quite unlikely.  

Now, If the conversation was on two VERY obscure shows, then I'd side with Mr. Lemon and Ottinger.  But I don't think, that with as long as they have lasted, they are very obscure shows.  So, I disagree with Mr. Lemon and Ottinger.

So what if they did God-Awful way back in the \"Golden Days\" of GSN, that was then.  I'm just saying, that there just may be a minute possibility that there are fans of the show, outside of the GS super-fan community, and there may be another infinitesimal possibility that they may want to see the show for old times sake.  So I say, pull them out of the vault, dust off the mold, and give them a shot.  If it does horrible, and loses millions for GSN, I'll shut up about it, and say that Mr. Lemon and Ottinger and anybody else that sided with them that they were right all along.  But untill then... well, you know.

[trainman]

[quote name=\'Jim\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 05:50 PM\'] Wouldn't it be cool if we all got diaries and Monday's headlines read "4 a.m. 'Truth' tops Emmys and NFL combined". [/quote]
 I kept a Nielsen diary for one week in the summer of 1999.

Unfortunately, I was living in an apartment complex with its own private cable system.  There was GSN to the left of me, GSN to the right of me, and there I was, stuck in the middle with...well, if you think GSN is run by monkeys, then this cable system was clearly run by some sort of single-celled organisms.  (For many reasons other than the fact that they didn't carry GSN.)

[Dbacksfan12]

[quote name=\'trainman\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 10:18 PM\'] [quote name=\'Jim\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 05:50 PM\'] Wouldn't it be cool if we all got diaries and Monday's headlines read "4 a.m. 'Truth' tops Emmys and NFL combined". [/quote]
I kept a Nielsen diary for one week in the summer of 1999.

Unfortunately, I was living in an apartment complex with its own private cable system.  There was GSN to the left of me, GSN to the right of me, and there I was, stuck in the middle with...well, if you think GSN is run by monkeys, then this cable system was clearly run by some sort of single-celled organisms.  (For many reasons other than the fact that they didn't carry GSN.) [/quote]
 In addition, to all the complainers, can you give me one compelling reason as to why GSN needs to be airing TTD and TJW?

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'whampyl03\' date=\'Sep 21 2003, 08:05 PM\'] Syndie TTD lasted for about 6 years...
Syndie TJW lasted for about 9 years...
 [/quote]
 There is no doubt both shows were very successful in their time. And that has not a thing to do with this discussion.

Now, you can argue that maybe only Nielson homes and ONLY Nielson homes were the ones who tuned in, and were the only fans of the series, but I see that as quite unlikely. 

So do I. Which is why I never made that argument.

But I don't think, that with as long as they have lasted, they are very obscure shows.

Neither do I.

So, I disagree with Mr. Lemon and Ottinger.

I don't see how, you haven't proven that you even understand what our points ARE yet, much less displayed an ability to refute them with anything approaching a relevant argument.

So what if they did God-Awful way back in the \"Golden Days\" of GSN, that was then.

Bingo! That was THEN! Back then, in those days, when they were lucky to have 5% coverage of the country, they needed every viewer they could get. Which means back THEN, they DID need to program to the die-hards. Back THEN, they needed to operate as cheaply as possible, and running repeats of TJW and TTD were cheap indeed.

This is NOW. They don't need us any more. Now, if you want to argue that point, and prove that there are enough of \"us\" to matter, you are welcome to try, but there isn't any evidence pointing to that.

I'm just saying, that there just may be a minute possibility that there are fans of the show, outside of the GS super-fan community, and there may be another infinitesimal possibility that they may want to see the show for old times sake.

And _I_ am saying that if Messr's Cronin and Boden are doing their jobs, they would be able to direct you to binders, folders, and probably entire file cabinets full-to-BURSTING with market research, studies, and demographics a damn sight more reliable than a single Web poll that indicate that such a programming decision is counter-productive to the current goals for the network.

No, I can't prove they exist. However, in the absence of any proof for or against, a reasonable person has to assume a certain baseline. And in this case, that baseline is that a television network has usually done the proper homework to defend their programming decisions.

Now, if you want to give me some concrete proof that this baseline is false, that you know something I don't, that Boden and Cronin are completely blind to a major cash cow by not running two programs that by your own argument were popular enough that they certainly would have to know something about their history, then by all means, let's hear it.

[Matt Ottinger]

Literally arguing with children, but since it's what I do in real life too...

Syndie TTD lasted for about 6 years...
Syndie TJW lasted for about 9 years...
Now, usually when a show lasts for that long, there must be SOMEBODY that was watching it.

No one's saying the shows weren't successful in their original runs.  Lots of shows that were hits a long time ago aren't on television anymore.

I'm just saying, that there just may be a minute possibility that there are fans of the show, outside of the GS super-fan community, and there may be another infinitesimal possibility that they may want to see the show for old times sake.

If GSN programmed based on \"infinitesimal possibilities\", this whole conversation would be moot because there wouldn't be a GSN anymore.  They also don't program their schedules to test your pet theories.  

If it does horrible, and loses millions for GSN, I'll shut up about it

Cronin:  \"There's a kid in Alaska who won't stop complaining about our schedule until we put TJW and TTD back on and lose millions.  Is this a good plan or what?\"

[dzinkin]

Syndie TTD lasted for about 6 years...

8 years -- but it ended in 1986.

Syndie TJW lasted for about 9 years...

And again, it ended in 1986.

Now, usually when a show lasts for that long, there must be SOMEBODY that was watching it.

Key word: \"was.\"

Now, you can argue that maybe only Nielson homes and ONLY Nielson homes were the ones who tuned in, and were the only fans of the series, but I see that as quite unlikely.

Unlikely, yes, but remember that the shows were also airing on broadcast stations across the country, not on a relatively obscure cable network.

But I don't think, that with as long as they have lasted, they are very obscure shows.

They \"haven't\" lasted that long -- they did last that long.  New episodes haven't been made in 17 years -- 13 if you want to count the 90-91 runs.  And even if we assume your claim to be correct, the fact that people know the shows doesn't mean they're going to sit down and watch.

So what if they did God-Awful way back in the \"Golden Days\" of GSN, that was then.

\"So what if the shows had long runs in the late 70s and early 80s, that was then.\"

Oh, wait... that's an okay explanation to back up your point, but not to disprove it?

I'm just saying, that there just may be a minute possibility that there are fans of the show, outside of the GS super-fan community, and there may be another infinitesimal possibility that they may want to see the show for old times sake.

So GSN should risk lots of $$$ for a \"minute\" or \"infinitesimal\" possibility?  The risk isn't \"minute\" or \"infinitesimal\" to them.

So I say, pull them out of the vault, dust off the mold, and give them a shot.  If it does horrible, and loses millions for GSN, I'll shut up about it, and say that Mr. Lemon and Ottinger and anybody else that sided with them that they were right all along.

You're still asking GSN to try something that they know didn't work.  You still have yet to tell us what changed between now and the last time GSN regularly ran TTD and TJW to make you think people will now watch the shows in huge numbers.

But untill then... well, you know.

Yes, unfortunately, we do know.

 - David

(edited for typos)

[whampyl03]

QUOTE 
Syndie TTD lasted for about 6 years...


8 years -- but it ended in 1986.

QUOTE 
Syndie TJW lasted for about 9 years...


And again, it ended in 1986.

Sorry, poor math and memory on my part...

Now, if you want to give me some concrete proof that this baseline is false, that you know something I don't, that Boden and Cronin are completely blind to a major cash cow by not running two programs that by your own argument were popular enough that they certainly would have to know something about their history, then by all means, let's hear it.

Well, again, I point to the FoF poll, Ottinger will say it's un-scientific and then it's a debate that is going around in circles...

So GSN should risk lots of $$$ for a \"minute\" or \"infinitesimal\" possibility? The risk isn't \"minute\" or \"infinitesimal\" to them.

But isn't GSN running some type of risk when they run any rare show today... Look at Blockbusters for example, Somebody must be watching it if it lasted for over 9 months on the schedule so far.

They \"haven't\" lasted that long -- they did last that long. New episodes haven't been made in 17 years -- 13 if you want to count the 90-91 runs. And even if we assume your claim to be correct, the fact that people know the shows doesn't mean they're going to sit down and watch.

And there hasn't been any new eps of WLoD on since '89, but GSN will still make room for it on the schedule.  Well, unless you count Pictionary.

You're still asking GSN to try something that they know didn't work. You still have yet to tell us what changed between now and the last time GSN regularly ran TTD and TJW to make you think people will now watch the shows in huge numbers.

Again, I point to the FoF, But Ottinger, Lemon, dzinkin will say that's it's absolutely garbage, and it doesn't count for anything.

Unlikely, yes, but remember that the shows were also airing on broadcast stations across the country, not on a relatively obscure cable network.

So, some of the people who watched TTD and TJW on the brodcast stations back then could have GSN today.

[dzinkin]

Sorry, poor math and memory on my part...

I was not giving the years to correct your memory or math, but to tell you that no matter how long the shows ran, they ended years ago.  What happened then and what happens now are two different things.

Well, again, I point to the FoF poll, Ottinger will say it's un-scientific and then it's a debate that is going around in circles...

You have yet to explain why he's wrong on either of those counts.

But isn't GSN running some type of risk when they run any rare show today... Look at Blockbusters for example, Somebody must be watching it if it lasted for over 9 months on the schedule so far.

And if that show didn't work, it would be gone too.  But it's not.  See the difference?

And there hasn't been any new eps of WLoD on since '89, but GSN will still make room for it on the schedule.  Well, unless you count Pictionary.

Because people are watching it.  If TJW and TTD had been watched in huge numbers when they were on GSN, those shows would still be on the schedule too.  But they weren't, so they're not.  What part of this don't you understand?  

Again, I point to the FoF, But Ottinger, Lemon, dzinkin will say that's it's absolutely garbage, and it doesn't count for anything.

Because when compared to actual market research, the FoF poll was garbage.

So, some of the people who watched TTD and TJW on the brodcast stations back then could have GSN today.

No doubt some do.  But enough to make keeping them on the schedule financially worthwhile?  Again, if that had been the case, the shows would have done much better when GSN first ran them.

Once again... you have yet to explain what has changed since GSN regularly aired TJW and TTD to merit another try.  Until you can answer that question, Matt's right -- you're just going in circles and saying what you want GSN to do, not giving concrete reasons why they should do it.

[whampyl03]

Once again... you have yet to explain what has changed since GSN regularly aired TJW and TTD to merit another try. Until you can answer that question, Matt's right -- you're just going in circles and saying what you want GSN to do, not giving concrete reasons why they should do it.

And why are you guys so sure that I'm the only one???  And again, I point to the FoF poll, and that both shows actually had a following.  And didn't GSN take a risk when they put Blockbusters or Trivia Trap back on the schedule in January? I'm pretty sure that beyond '94, they were probably not mainstays on the schedule.  I'm just asking for one measly shot on the schedule.  If it fails and kicks up the negative $'s for GSN, then I'll GLADLY admit that I'm wrong.

Because when compared to actual market research, the FoF poll was garbage.

And it was probably due to that same market research that ratings dropped 40%.

[inturnaround]

First off, some people do watch the Whammy rerun at 3:30. IIRC, there is only one feed for GSN...so the 3:30 Whammy! on the East Coast is the 12:30 Whammy! on the West.  Then B&WO at 1AM and Paid Programming at 3 until 6AM.

I would venture to say that GSN is not a channel that most people watch the way we do. Many people stop on GSN when nothing else is on. There's very little appointment television opportunities on the channel. It, more than TV Land, is a channel that people watch when there's nothing else on or when they're waiting for a movie on HBO to start. It's a channel that's easily given to people being able to jump in and jump out with no muss or fuss (much like Law and Order is today...you don't need prior knowledge to enjoy the show).

So, running WinTuition or Cram or any of their originals into the ground may be obvious to us...but to the public at large, since they tune in infrequently if at all, they never pick up on it.

I've no doubt that some people would watch TJW or TTD if they aired. Would it make as much money for GSN as a show they own lock stock and, well, you know the rest... Of course not.

GSN certainly tries to do what they can. But there's just no way to please everyone. They have limited classic game programming. They occasionally rotate the selections. (Nostalgia can be sated pretty quickly for a casual fan or interested observer)

Would I program it differently? Sure, there's things I like that haven't been aired for years or things I'm curious about. Hell, I love TTD. I'd love to see that. But is it the best business decision for GSN? I don't think it would be.