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Author Topic: Questions about 21  (Read 12657 times)

Matt Ottinger

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Questions about 21
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2003, 12:56:20 PM »
[quote name=\'goongas\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 12:25 PM\'] IMO, (I am probably wrong so feel free to correct me), 21 was rigged in the 50's because the show didn't work well without it being rigged.  It is no wonder to me why the modern version didn't work either. [/quote]
 Actually, Eric, that's pretty much it exactly.  No amount of tinkering and simplifying the questions and magnifying the payouts and unnecessary flourishes (a live band?) could change the fact that this was a format that didn't work in the FIFTIES!  They did what they could with what they had, but I'm pretty sure that NBC saw the writing on the wall that this wasn't going to be engaging over the long run.
This has been another installment of Matt Ottinger's Masters of the Obvious.
Stay tuned for all the obsessive-compulsive fun of Words Have Meanings.

uncamark

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Questions about 21
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2003, 05:29:10 PM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 11:56 AM\'][quote name=\'goongas\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 12:25 PM\'] IMO, (I am probably wrong so feel free to correct me), 21 was rigged in the 50's because the show didn't work well without it being rigged.  It is no wonder to me why the modern version didn't work either. [/quote]
Actually, Eric, that's pretty much it exactly.  No amount of tinkering and simplifying the questions and magnifying the payouts and unnecessary flourishes (a live band?) could change the fact that this was a format that didn't work in the FIFTIES!  They did what they could with what they had, but I'm pretty sure that NBC saw the writing on the wall that this wasn't going to be engaging over the long run.[/quote]
And most importantly--it didn't kill \"WWTBAM.\"  NBC didn't put \"Twenty-One\" back on the air to perpetuate the big money quiz show.  They put it on to kill the reinstigator of the genre--and it didn't do that, so they quickly discarded it.  I'm sure that neither Phil Gurin nor (despite some of the things said about him on these forums) Fred Silverman had that in mind, and the NBC suits didn't say that to them, but considering the general contempt for the genre from the execs, I'm pretty sure that's what they were thinking.

Meanwhile, some will argue that \"WWTBAM\" a year or so later killed itself in prime time--or should we say was assisted by the policies of certain ABC programming execs.

PeterMarshallFan

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Questions about 21
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2003, 05:35:39 PM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 12:56 PM\'] [quote name=\'goongas\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 12:25 PM\'] IMO, (I am probably wrong so feel free to correct me), 21 was rigged in the 50's because the show didn't work well without it being rigged.  It is no wonder to me why the modern version didn't work either. [/quote]
Actually, Eric, that's pretty much it exactly.  No amount of tinkering and simplifying the questions and magnifying the payouts and unnecessary flourishes (a live band?) could change the fact that this was a format that didn't work in the FIFTIES!  They did what they could with what they had, but I'm pretty sure that NBC saw the writing on the wall that this wasn't going to be engaging over the long run. [/quote]
 IMO, it looked bad then because the games could theoretically be endless with 2 players tossing incorrect answers back and forth for a half hour [didn't the 1st ep. have something like this happen?] When it came back, the \"3 Strikes\" rule, although kinda out of place, was a fair enough remedy for it.

I also think this could possibly be revived on GSN [with the second payoff structure, cut in 10 to make it $2,500, $5,000, $10k, $25k, $50k, $75k, and $100k]


Didn't the 2000 series actually do pretty well?

bttritle

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Questions about 21
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2003, 06:51:02 PM »
[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 12:38 AM\'] Yeah, because NBC is ALL ABOUT shunning the largest potential audience they can.

This is the stupidest argument I've heard in a long time. And I'm involved in a pretty stupid argument elsewhere on this very board.
 [/quote]
 What's stupid is pointing and laughing...what's smart is making an attempt at explaining why.

Your argument stated correctly that they took a show concept that was by all means flawed, tried to infuse it with a bunch of cash.  The thing is that people bought into the show.  The ratings the show received even after it moved into Monday nights is what the networks kill for during summer programming these days.  I just don't agree that the death of the show had anything to do with the show.

clemon79

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Questions about 21
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2003, 07:46:55 PM »
[quote name=\'bttritle\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 03:51 PM\'] What's stupid is pointing and laughing...what's smart is making an attempt at explaining why.
I just don't agree that the death of the show had anything to do with the show. [/quote]
 So instead you're going to claim that it's some kind of conspiracy theory? Because when you say:
Quote
It was cancelled because NBC didn't want to recognize that a large portion of the population wanted to watch it.
...that's exactly what you are doing.

So if you don't mind, until you can succesfully explain why NBC would \"not want\" to recognize a show's success, which is pretty much diametrically opposed to how ANY television network does business, I'm gonna get back to pointing and laughing.
Chris Lemon, King Fool, Director of Suck Consolidation
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PeterMarshallFan

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Questions about 21
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2003, 07:50:14 PM »
[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 07:46 PM\'] So if you don't mind, until you can succesfully explain why NBC would "not want" to recognize a show's success, which is pretty much diametrically opposed to how ANY television network does business, I'm gonna get back to pointing and laughing. [/quote]
 This is just my opinion, but any game show with Fred \"Hacksaw\" Silverman involved is pretty much doomed from the beginning. We all know what he did to HS when it was still getting a 20 rating and a 27 share.

bttritle

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Questions about 21
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2003, 09:08:28 PM »
[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 06:46 PM\'] [quote name=\'bttritle\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 03:51 PM\'] What's stupid is pointing and laughing...what's smart is making an attempt at explaining why.
I just don't agree that the death of the show had anything to do with the show. [/quote]
So instead you're going to claim that it's some kind of conspiracy theory? Because when you say:
Quote
It was cancelled because NBC didn't want to recognize that a large portion of the population wanted to watch it.
...that's exactly what you are doing.

So if you don't mind, until you can succesfully explain why NBC would \"not want\" to recognize a show's success, which is pretty much diametrically opposed to how ANY television network does business, I'm gonna get back to pointing and laughing. [/quote]
Conspiracy theory?  No...I'm saying it was dead in the water.  

Grant Tinker was on record saying he wished the whole game show craze would go away quickly.  As others have pointed out here, NBC's reason for putting the show on were not so much to jump on the bandwagon, but to dillute the field enough to give cause for its removal from the schedule.

When Tinker left/was relieved of his duties, take your pick, it was believed that that attitude had lightened a little bit, especially when NBC had created a specific division related to reality programming at roughly the same time.  

The only reason why NBC went as long with it as it did is because a large audience found it.  It was only supposed to last four episodes, two in each of two weeks on Wednesdays and Sundays.  However, despite the press release stating as such, NBC knew they would have to fit the show around the Golden Globes.  After the initial shows did well by NBC, but not Millionaire numbers, they ordered two more.  When those two shows did well, they ordered thirteen more, figuring it to be a sweeps tentpole.  Yet, when sweeps ended, they still preempted the next two weeks worth of shows for a low rated miniseries that did half the ratings.  The results?  Rather than put it back where it was to bolster the night, they put it on what was commonly seen as a graveyard shift...only to be a tentpole again.

However, it appeared that NBC chose to kill Twenty One in spite of the ratings when they pulled the very final episode of the show, which would have aired early in the Spring sweeps period, for alternate programming that never acheived the ratings that Freaks and Geeks/TwentyOne/Third Watch did in the previous months.

NBC's actions were no better than FOX's at the time, when they chose to cancel Greed on the heels of the cancellation of Chance of a Lifetime.  

A show's success is based on its ratings...a network's success is based on its profit.  

So to answer your question...any network would not want to recognize a show's success when it isn't successful with who the network wants it to be successful.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2003, 09:08:58 PM by bttritle »

Don Howard

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Questions about 21
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2003, 10:43:08 PM »
Oh, what do you know about Twenty One anyway, Tritle? **insert twinkle in the eye icon**

By the by, oh Benjamin one, how many taping sessions did you attend before you were chosen to go into the booth?

zachhoran

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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2003, 10:53:25 PM »
[quote name=\'bttritle\' date=\'Sep 22 2003, 08:08 PM\']

However, it appeared that NBC chose to kill Twenty One in spite of the ratings when they pulled the very final episode of the show, which would have aired early in the Spring sweeps period, for alternate programming that never acheived the ratings that Freaks and Geeks/TwentyOne/Third Watch did in the previous months.

 [/quote]
 However, as Ben Tritle himself will tell you, unlike the case of the Bush LMAD which has two unaired episodes and Winning Lines which has six unaired episodes IIRC, the final episode of Twenty One did air on SUnday Night of Memorial Day weekend 2000 at 7PM with essentially no promos by the network.
When the episode was taped two months earlier, Maury and Co. were not sure if the show would be renewed, so there was no goodbye.

ChuckNet

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Questions about 21
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2003, 07:04:07 PM »
Quote
When the episode was taped two months earlier, Maury and Co. were not sure if the show would be renewed, so there was no goodbye.

Not to mention that it ended w/a game in progress...the champ had just won a game and hadn't yet played the bonus round.

Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious \"Chuckie Baby\")

zachhoran

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Questions about 21
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2003, 07:12:13 PM »
[quote name=\'ChuckNet\' date=\'Sep 23 2003, 06:04 PM\'] \
Not to mention that it ended w/a game in progress...the champ had just won a game and hadn't yet played the bonus round.
 [/quote]
 Play the Percentages' last show ended with a lack of time to play a bonus round, too(and PtP's later format was sort-of based on 21, minus the isolation booths, and with a different scoring system, and of course not rigged)

clemon79

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Questions about 21
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2003, 07:15:13 PM »
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Sep 23 2003, 04:12 PM\'] Play the Percentages' last show ended with a lack of time to play a bonus round, too(and PtP's later format was sort-of based on 21, minus the isolation booths, and with a different scoring system, and of course not rigged) [/quote]
 Yer REALLY reaching, Zach. :)
Chris Lemon, King Fool, Director of Suck Consolidation
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Email: clemon79@outlook.com  |  Skype: FredSmythe

bttritle

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Questions about 21
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2003, 07:33:18 PM »
[quote name=\'ChuckNet\' date=\'Sep 23 2003, 06:04 PM\'] Not to mention that it ended w/a game in progress...the champ had just won a game and hadn't yet played the bonus round.
 [/quote]
 Technically, there was no game in progress.  This is why it was a bonus round.  The only time the show ended with a game in progress was the first show, when a game that ended at 21-21 tie straddled to the next show to play the tie breaker.