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Author Topic: Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...  (Read 5940 times)

mxc0427

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« on: August 14, 2008, 01:18:25 AM »
Well, according to sources, the new season of Millionaire will replace the 50:50 lifeline with Double Dip. Statistically, this is a good move....

Scenario 1 is that you have NO IDEA to the answer. With the 50:50, you are left with a 50% chance (1/2) of getting the question right. Double Dip allows two guesses. The first guess is out of a possible 4 answers. Thus 25% (1/4). Getting the question wrong will yield a 1/3 guess (33%). In statistics, AND = multiplication and OR= addition. Because you have the chance of getting the question correct on the first attempt OR the second attempt, adding the probabilities will give you a 58% of answering the question correctly.

Looking at the other way with the Double Dip, you have a 75% (3/4) of getting the question wrong on the first attempt and a 66% (2/3) of getting the question wrong on the second attempt. Because answering the question wrong requires an incorrect answer on the first attempt AND the second attempt, you multiply these probabilities to give you about a 50% of missing the question. So as you can see, you have the same failure percentage for both lifelines, but a higher probability of getting a question right with Double Dip.

Scenario 2 is when you can knock out one of the answers as being incorrect in your head. If the 50:50 is really random (which I don't think it is), you have 6 different combinations of answers to be left with ( 4 chose 2). Going back to statistics, you have "3 bad answers" and "1 good answer" (the good answer is the one you know it can't be). The odds of having that one answer be one of the remaining 2 answers is 50% (3 chose 1 multiplied by 1 chose 1, all divided by 6).  But from this, even eliminating one of the answers off the top of your head will still yield a 50% shot with the 50:50 if you are not sure.

When the Double Dip is issued in this scenario, the first attempt you have at the question is 33% (1/3). Getting it wrong on the first try would yield a 50% on the next attempt (1/2). Again, you either get the question right on your first attempt OR the second attempt. So with this method, you have increased your odds to 83%. With having a gut instinct on one of the answers being incorrect, the odds for the 50:50 remain the same, but the Double Dip increases by 25% (because you eliminated one of the four possible choices.)

I just used what I learned from my statistics class last semester to put this together. There are other models where I could try this in, but for now, that's my best question.

What do you guys think? Which lifeline do you like better?

Matt Ottinger

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 11:13:11 AM »
[quote name=\'mxc0427\' post=\'193998\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 01:18 AM\']
If the 50:50 is really random (which I don't think it is)[/quote]
If you're going to do a factual analysis, it helps to have your facts straight.  If you want to believe the 50:50 is not random, then you are essentially saying that the show is illegally rigging the game, and they are willing to face fines and jail time and who knows what else just to let Meredith use the word "random".  Because she can't say it unless it's so.

Once again (and I'm sure not for the last time):

50:50 was NOT random in the original network version, and Regis never said it was.
50:50 IS random in the syndicated version, which is why Meredith says it is.

This is not a difficult concept.  Next week:  Whether the world is round.
This has been another installment of Matt Ottinger's Masters of the Obvious.
Stay tuned for all the obsessive-compulsive fun of Words Have Meanings.

davidhammett

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 11:40:38 AM »
[quote name=\'mxc0427\' post=\'193998\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 01:18 AM\']
Scenario 1 is that you have NO IDEA to the answer. With the 50:50, you are left with a 50% chance (1/2) of getting the question right. Double Dip allows two guesses. The first guess is out of a possible 4 answers. Thus 25% (1/4). Getting the question wrong will yield a 1/3 guess (33%). In statistics, AND = multiplication and OR= addition. Because you have the chance of getting the question correct on the first attempt OR the second attempt, adding the probabilities will give you a 58% of answering the question correctly.
Looking at the other way with the Double Dip, you have a 75% (3/4) of getting the question wrong on the first attempt and a 66% (2/3) of getting the question wrong on the second attempt. Because answering the question wrong requires an incorrect answer on the first attempt AND the second attempt, you multiply these probabilities to give you about a 50% of missing the question. So as you can see, you have the same failure percentage for both lifelines, but a higher probability of getting a question right with Double Dip.

Scenario 2 is when you can knock out one of the answers as being incorrect in your head... When the Double Dip is issued in this scenario, the first attempt you have at the question is 33% (1/3). Getting it wrong on the first try would yield a 50% on the next attempt (1/2). Again, you either get the question right on your first attempt OR the second attempt. So with this method, you have increased your odds to 83%. With having a gut instinct on one of the answers being incorrect, the odds for the 50:50 remain the same, but the Double Dip increases by 25% (because you eliminated one of the four possible choices.)
[/quote]

The spirit of your calculations is correct, but there's a problem.  In scenario 1, you say there's a 58% chance of being right with Double Dip, and a 50% chance of being wrong.  That can't happen (the total is 108%).  The error is in scenario 1, where you add 25% and 33%.  The probability of being correct the first time *is* 25%, and the probability of being correct the second time *is* 33% -- but you won't be correct the second time if you were already correct the first time.  The calculation should be based on being correct the first time, OR (being incorrect the first time AND being correct the second time), which gives:  

(1/4) + (3/4)(1/3) = 1/2 = 50%

Even simpler is to realize that with Double Dip, you get to choose 2 answers out of 4... and as deceptive as probability can be sometimes, that just works out to be 2/4 = 1/2.

There's a similar issue with the 33% + 50% calculation in scenario 2.  It should be:

(1/3) + (2/3)(1/2) = 2/3 = 67%,

or, again, you can simply say you get two choices out of the three answers.

Also, 50-50 leaves the same 67% probability in scenario 2.  Let's assume without loss of generality that A is right, but that you can rule D out.  Under 50-50, you would be left with either AB, AC, or AD, so 2/3 of the time you would still have to guess.  Thus, the probability of being right is:

P(having AD) + P(not having AD)*P(guessing correctly) = (1/3) + (2/3)(1/2) = 2/3 = 67%.

However, here is a third scenario:

Scenario 3:  You can narrow it down to two answers in your head.  With Double Dip, you will certainly get the correct answer; if you were wrong the first time, you'll be right the second time.  However, with 50-50, there is still a chance you'll be wrong -- if A was right and you ruled out C and D, you could still miss the question if 50-50 left you with AB.

So the two lifelines are the same if you're clueless or can only rule out 1 answer; Double Dip is better if you can rule out 2 answers.

/ruling out 3 answers is left as an exercise to the reader
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 11:55:00 AM by davidhammett »

Hastin

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 11:44:07 AM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'194036\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 08:13 AM\']
Once again (and I'm sure not for the last time):

50:50 was NOT random in the original network version, and Regis never said it was.
50:50 IS random in the syndicated version, which is why Meredith says it is.
[/quote]

And this is why I enjoyed 50:50 on the Regis version, because it WAS evil. Now with it random, there's many times when the not-possible answer gets left - creating a slam-dunk question. Double Dip is better for the reason that it seems that 50:50 was designed to trick, and now on higher level questions, they can still do that (create 2 answers that are very close, and then make people use their DD).
-Hastin :)

SRIV94

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 11:47:55 AM »
[quote name=\'davidhammett\' post=\'194038\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 10:40 AM\']
(1/4) + (3/4)(2/3) = 1/2 = 50%
[/quote]
Are you sure that's right?  I multiply (3/4) and (2/3) and I come up with (1/2), which means that the equation should be (1/4) + (1/2) = (3/4) = 75%.  Unless I'm way off base (which knowing you as well as I do I could very well be).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 11:54:29 AM by SRIV94 »
Doug
----------------------------------------
"When you see the crawl at the end of the show you will see a group of talented people who will all be moving over to other shows...the cameramen aren't are on that list, but they're not talented people."  John Davidson, TIME MACHINE (4/26/85)

davidhammett

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 11:54:27 AM »
[quote name=\'davidhammett\' post=\'194038\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 11:40 AM\']
The spirit of your calculations is correct, but there's a problem.  In scenario 1, you say there's a 58% chance of being right with Double Dip, and a 50% chance of being wrong.  That can't happen (the total is 108%).  The error is in scenario 1, where you add 25% and 33%.  The probability of being correct the first time *is* 25%, and the probability of being correct the second time *is* 33% -- but you won't be correct the second time if you were already correct the first time.  The calculation should be based on being correct the first time, OR (being incorrect the first time AND being correct the second time), which gives:  

(1/4) + (3/4)(1/3) = 1/2 = 50%
[/quote]

Thanks, Doug... it's early here.  :-)  I've edited the calculation -- there's a 3/4 chance that you'll be able to pick the ONE correct answer out of three.  (I've also edited the original post.)

SRIV94

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 11:58:54 AM »
[quote name=\'davidhammett\' post=\'194041\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 10:54 AM\']
Thanks, Doug... it's early here.  :-)  I've edited the calculation -- there's a 3/4 chance that you'll be able to pick the ONE correct answer out of three.  (I've also edited the original post.)
[/quote]
Got it.  Makes sense.
Doug
----------------------------------------
"When you see the crawl at the end of the show you will see a group of talented people who will all be moving over to other shows...the cameramen aren't are on that list, but they're not talented people."  John Davidson, TIME MACHINE (4/26/85)

mxc0427

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 12:00:09 PM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'194036\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 11:13 AM\']50:50 was NOT random in the original network version, and Regis never said it was.
50:50 IS random in the syndicated version, which is why Meredith says it is.
[/quote]
Thanks Matt for the clarification. I just remember watching a documentary of the show years ago on the Regis era, where they showed behind the scenes and said that the 50:50 answers were locked into the computer already. Good they changed that in Meredith's version!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 04:50:20 PM by Matt Ottinger »

weaklink75

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 12:20:10 PM »
There's also this- if you use the 50/50 and it leaves you with two answers you're not sure of, you can still walk away, while if you use the Double Dip, you've committed yourself to answering the question- so there is that risk to consider...

mxc0427

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 04:44:09 PM »
After reading all of your opinions and inputs, I know that there were some mathematical mistakes that I made. I have now fixed this, so this is what I have, and I want to know if you approve of it:

DOUBLE DIP SCENARIOS:

Scenario 1: No idea on the question, blind guess. With your two possible answers, you have 6 combinations (4 choose 2) You have 3 "bad answers" and 1 "good answer." The probability of getting the question wrong is if you pick 2 of the 3 bad answers:

((3 choose 2) * (1 choose 0)) / 6 = .50 = 50%

The probability of getting the question right is if you pick one bad answer and the one right answer:

((3 choose 1) * (1 choose 1)) / 6 = .50 = 50%

>>So with having no idea to the question, the Double Dip has the same odds as the 50:50.

Scenario 2: You can eliminate one answer.
Now this time, you are working with 3 combinations (3 choose 2). You have 2 "bad answers" and 1 "good answer." The probability of getting the question wrong is if you pick 2 of the 3 bad answers:

((2 choose 2) * (2 choose 0)) / 3 = .33 = 33%

The probability of getting the question right is if you pick one bad answer and the one right answer:

((2 choose 1) * (2 choose 1)) / 3 = .67 = 67%

So eliminating one answer from the possible 4 would give you a higher percentage in answering correctly, and a lower percentage in answering incorrectly.

This is exactly how davidhammett looked at it!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 05:33:36 PM by mxc0427 »

bandit_bobby

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 05:34:32 PM »
I'm sticking with the 50:50 because you're not forced to risk money when you use it, unlike the Double Dip.

pacdude

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 06:37:26 PM »
[quote name=\'bandit_bobby\' post=\'194070\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 05:34 PM\']I'm sticking with the 50:50 because you're not forced to risk money when you use it, unlike the Double Dip.[/quote]

Next time Buzzer talks to Michael Davies, I'll let him know.

HYHYBT

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 01:35:38 AM »
Quote
There's also this- if you use the 50/50 and it leaves you with two answers you're not sure of, you can still walk away, while if you use the Double Dip, you've committed yourself to answering the question- so there is that risk to consider...
Yes, but the 50:50 helps (if it helps at all) by providing information you didn't already have. That's the only reason there's any point in being able to walk after using it. Double Dip gives at worst the same odds, and since it provides no new information, all you have to do isto decide whether to quit or not before using it.
"If you ask me to repeat this I'm gonna punch you right in the nose" -- Geoff Edwards, Play the Percentages

TheConfessor

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 06:08:55 AM »
[quote name=\'davidhammett\' post=\'194038\' date=\'Aug 14 2008, 10:40 AM\']
So the two lifelines are the same if you're clueless or can only rule out 1 answer; Double Dip is better if you can rule out 2 answers.[/quote]
That's true if you have already decided to answer the question before using the lifeline.  But it doesn't account for the fact that 50-50 allows you to walk away if you're still not sure, while Double Dip commits you to going for it.

I was very glad to have 50-50 remaining when I answered the 15th question in my stack.  I'd have been much more wary about using the Double Dip instead.  In my case, I would have gone for it anyway, but I'm sure that won't be true in a lot of cases.  No one ever walks away with the 50-50 still on the table.  Many people will walk away with the Double Dip still on the table.

J.R.

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Double Dip vs. 50:50: Looking at the odds...
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 02:39:44 PM »
[quote name=\'TheConfessor\' post=\'194585\' date=\'Aug 20 2008, 05:08 AM\']No one ever walks away with the 50-50 still on the table.[/quote]
I do distinctly remember someone on the ABC version walking away with the 50:50 still in play. His reasoning was something to the effect of using the 50:50 would tempt him too strongly into gambling (It was a high-level question too).
-Joe Raygor