Author Topic: How Much Did Charles Van Doren "Win"? (Read 5188 times)

MrBuddwing · « **on:** October 21, 2009, 12:51:43 AM »

How much in the way of ill-gotten goods did Charles Van Doren get on "Twenty-One"?

Look it up on Wikipedia, and you'll see a production still of Van Doren with host Jack Barry and the woman who "dethroned" him, Vivienne Nearing, and the figure "$129,000" on a light board.

Surf the Web, and you'll see the figure $138,000 bandied about in a few places, including PBS.org and the Internet Movie Database.

Read the article Van Doren wrote last year for The New Yorker, and you'll see $128,000 - a figure cited by Van Doren himself.

They can't all be right (or can they?).

Any thoughts?

TLEberle · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2009, 01:18:20 AM »

$139,000 would be the winnings of Charles before being "defeated", which would explain that disparity.

chris319 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2009, 02:58:52 PM »

[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'228923\' date=\'Oct 20 2009, 10:18 PM\']$139,000 would be the winnings of Charles before being "defeated", which would explain that disparity.[/quote]
Please explain your arithmetic. We now have four figures being thrown about. The question addresses his net winnings without qualification such as "before being 'defeated'".

$128,000

$129,000

$138,000

$139,000

It can't be all of them.

Neumms · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2009, 03:29:52 PM »

Van Doren would have lost $1000 for each point by which he lost his last game. Whether he went into that with $138,000 or $139,000, you got me.

Don Howard · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2009, 03:42:15 PM »

According to Charles Van Doren's testimony:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6566/ Source: Congress, House, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Investigation of Television Quiz Shows, 86th Cong., 1st Sess., November 2–6, 1959 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1960).
his final total was $129,000.
He also says he played three tie games against his conqueror, so the final game in the set would have been at $2000 per point.

Kevin Prather · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:02:34 PM »

[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'228958\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 12:42 PM\']According to Charles Van Doren's testimony:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6566/ Source: Congress, House, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Investigation of Television Quiz Shows, 86th Cong., 1st Sess., November 2–6, 1959 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1960).
his final total was $129,000.
He also says he played three tie games against his conqueror, so the final game in the set would have been at $2000 per point.[/quote]
So of the above figures, he most likely went in with $139,000, and lost by 5, correct?

chris319 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2009, 05:18:22 PM »

Quote

Surf the Web, and you'll see the figure $138,000 bandied about in a few places

Well if it's on the web it MUST be true -- and accurate.

TLEberle · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2009, 08:53:53 PM »

[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'228953\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 11:58 AM\']Please explain your arithmetic. We now have four figures being thrown about. The question addresses his net winnings without qualification such as "before being 'defeated'".[/quote] I'm going by what I read in Quiz Craze. He left the show with $129,000, and $10,000 was given to Ms. Nearing after the victory.

joker316 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:03:51 PM »

Having written a term paper in high school on the quiz scandals, plus a little help from the book "Prime Time and Misdemeanors" let me try to help.

Van Doren went into the match with Nearing with $143,000 in winnings. The two tied in three straight games then in the fourth game at $2,000 a point, Nearing had 17 points at the end of the second round. Van Doren famously missed the question on King Beaudoin but earned 10 points on the second question. Nearing elected to stop the game and won 17-10 and $14,000 from Van Doren's total. This left Van Doren with $129,000.

tvrandywest · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:20:55 PM »

[quote name=\'joker316\' post=\'228982\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 06:03 PM\']Having written a term paper in high school on the quiz scandals, plus a little help from the book "Prime Time and Misdemeanors" let me try to help.

Van Doren went into the match with Nearing with $143,000 in winnings. The two tied in three straight games then in the fourth game at $2,000 a point, Nearing had 17 points at the end of the second round. Van Doren famously missed the question on King Beaudoin but earned 10 points on the second question. Nearing elected to stop the game and won 17-10 and $14,000 from Van Doren's total. This left Van Doren with $129,000.[/quote]

I hope you got an A on the term paper!

Confirmed with the following excerpt (page 216) from "Johnny Olson: A Voice in Time" used with the permission of the copyright holder... me!

... By contrast, big money quiz shows were awarding life-altering sums of money
to average Americans — the more average and in possession of vast knowledge, the
better. A dock worker earned $10,500 for his scholarly prowess, and a police officer
who knew Shakespeare captured $16,000. A grandmother who worked as a typist
tapped $32,000 answering questions on the Bible. A shoemaker who knew opera
sewed-up $64,000, as did Billy Pearson, a jockey who rode to riches as an expert
on art.

Charles Van Doren, who earned $4,400 a year as a Columbia University instructor,
climbed to $129,000. Elfrida Von Nardoff, a student at that respected university,
amassed $220,500, while Teddy Nadler, a minimum-wage warehouse clerk and
occasional cab driver, pocketed $252,000. As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”

Randy
tvrandywest.com

joker316 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:38:16 PM »

[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 09:20 PM\']I hope you got an A on the term paper!

Randy
tvrandywest.com[/quote]
I sure did!!!

MrBuddwing · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:01:09 AM »

[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'228967\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 05:18 PM\']

Quote

Surf the Web, and you'll see the figure $138,000 bandied about in a few places

Well if it's on the web it MUST be true -- and accurate.
[/quote]

Right. Which is why I turn to forums like this one where people know their stuff and can give me a more authoritative answer.

Appreciate being quoted out of context, though.

Jay Temple · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:13:15 AM »

[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM\']As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”

Randy
tvrandywest.com[/quote]
(emphasis mine) He only got one wrong.

Mr. Armadillo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2009, 10:13:50 AM »

[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM\']As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”[/quote]
My, how far we've fallen.

chris319 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2009, 10:51:26 AM »

Refresh my memory, was Vivienne Nearing given help which Van Doren didn't receive, as opposed to Van Doren being ordered to take a dive as Herb Stempel was? And who was the announcer on Twenty One?