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Author Topic: So I'm Watching Donwfall...  (Read 4212 times)

mmb5

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So I'm Watching Donwfall...
« on: July 17, 2010, 06:39:54 PM »
Been very busy so I haven't caught an episode until today.  Looks like yet another way to abuse the concept of the money ladder and extra chance after extra chance.  Which led me to wonder...

Is it now a cultural thing reflected in game shows that in order to fail you have to fail repeatedly?  50s shows with money trees, no second chances.  If you were wrong -- you lost.  Everything.  In school -- you failed -- no social promotion.

Nowadays -- second chances, panic buttons, helps and safety zones.  Real life -- social promotion, "it's society's fault" and repeated extra chances.

Another difference: Early shows -- primarily female adults as contestants, commercials were targeted towards adults.  Nowadays -- contestants <35, because advertisers want them and nobody else.

Any other cultural differences that you have noticed?
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TLEberle

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So I'm Watching Donwfall...
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 06:54:46 PM »
In all of the episodes, a total of $25,000.00 cash and no prizes have been won. I don't think that is the fault of the way the game is set up, but more the caliber of contestants who bleat "Pass!" without even having a guess. I don't think that being clipped to a pulley 100 feet above the ground can be entirely to blame for people getting zero right before panicking out.

I think more than "society's fault," I think that the current situation is "Millionaire's fault." They set the paradigm in 1999, and we're riding it because no one wants to deviate. Greed deviated and scared away teams from having a go at the big bucks, instead opting to bail on $200k and $500k. How interesting would Millionaire be without the lifelines? If you've never heard of the saying that is shown in the $300 question, well, you're just screwed, aren't you. That's what a lifeline does, it saves your bacon.

What if Millionaire had no lifelines, no safety points and you had to decide to play before you saw the answers and questions, and once you saw the question, you had to answer? (Besides Bob Stewart laughing his ass off.) It would be boring as hell. People would quit once they had built up a few thousand dollars.

To break away from the shackles of lifelines, safety and Shouty McSobstory as your contestant, it will take another coming of someone like Jay Wolpert who is willing to have a punt on something wacky and untried, and it'll have to be a smash hit.
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BrandonFG

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So I'm Watching Donwfall...
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 09:16:14 PM »
[quote name=\'mmb5\' post=\'244380\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 06:39 PM\']Been very busy so I haven't caught an episode until today.  Looks like yet another way to abuse the concept of the money ladder and extra chance after extra chance.  Which led me to wonder...

Is it now a cultural thing reflected in game shows that in order to fail you have to fail repeatedly?  50s shows with money trees, no second chances.  If you were wrong -- you lost.  Everything.  In school -- you failed -- no social promotion.

Nowadays -- second chances, panic buttons, helps and safety zones.  Real life -- social promotion, "it's society's fault" and repeated extra chances.[/quote]
Did the 50s shows offer consolation prizes of any sort, even if it was nothing more than a year's supply of detergent from the sponsor? Nowadays, most game shows offer nothing (maybe airfare and I'm not completely sure on that anymore), so if you fail, you get the Nelson cackle of the night, and you have to find your way back home. Temptation didn't even bother to spring for the $50 or so that a second/third place contestant would've made.

Granted, in the latter case, it would be silly to fly to California or NY without a return trip ticket or gas in the tank.
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Fedya

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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 10:15:25 PM »
[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'244401\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 09:16 PM\']Did the 50s shows offer consolation prizes of any sort, even if it was nothing more than a year's supply of detergent from the sponsor?[/quote]
According to The Museum of Broadcast Communications, if you reached the $8,000 level on The $64,000 Question, you received a Cadillac as a consolation prize regardless of what else happened.

Quote
Temptation didn't even bother to spring for the $50 or so that a second/third place contestant would've made.
Except that Temptation contestants received "lots of love", and you can't put a value on that.
-- Ted Schuerzinger, now blogging at <a href=\"http://justacineast.blogspot.com/\" target=\"_blank\">http://justacineast.blogspot.com/[/url]

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TLEberle

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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 10:33:11 PM »
[quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'244405\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 07:15 PM\']Except that Temptation contestants received "lots of love", and you can't put a value on that.[/quote]Wanna bet? :)
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clemon79

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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 10:41:51 PM »
[quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'244405\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 07:15 PM\']Except that Temptation contestants received "lots of love", and you can't put a value on that.[/quote]
Knows the precise cost of "lots of love"

/also familiar with the difficulty inherent to his occupation
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 10:43:18 PM by clemon79 »
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TheInquisitiveOne

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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 12:23:14 AM »
[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244407\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 09:41 PM\'][quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'244405\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 07:15 PM\']Except that Temptation contestants received "lots of love", and you can't put a value on that.[/quote]
Knows the precise cost of "lots of love"

/also familiar with the difficulty inherent to his occupation
[/quote]

You win.

Pertaining to the subject of this thread, I was going to say something about "breaking the walls down" and building a new format without using the same formula, then I saw this and had to bow down. I can't top that. :)

While the formula is tried and true, what is wrong with doing just a simple quiz show, where reward is based on skill and a wrong answer results in a substantial penalty (read: Game Over)? Oftentimes, I miss those days.

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Joe Mello

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 01:09:53 AM »
I don't necessarily buy the argument I'm about to make, but with the shows of the moment and the recent news and whatnot, I see reasoning behind it.

I don't think the Male 18-34's actually want to watch game shows.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 01:10:16 AM by Joe Mello »
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RMF

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 02:13:43 AM »
[quote name=\'mmb5\' post=\'244380\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 06:39 PM\']Is it now a cultural thing reflected in game shows that in order to fail you have to fail repeatedly?  50s shows with money trees, no second chances.  If you were wrong -- you lost.  Everything.  In school -- you failed -- no social promotion.

Nowadays -- second chances, panic buttons, helps and safety zones.  Real life -- social promotion, "it's society's fault" and repeated extra chances.

Another difference: Early shows -- primarily female adults as contestants, commercials were targeted towards adults.  Nowadays -- contestants <35, because advertisers want them and nobody else.[/quote]

Several points of order...

First, the "need to fail repeatedly" is something that can be found in some of the 1950s (and, counting radio, earlier) game show. "Break The Bank" allowed one false answer, "Big Surprise" losing contestants (IIRC) kept a percentage of their winnings, the preliminary rounds of "Name That Tune" were heavily coached, the pay scale on "Two For The Money" made it difficult to go home with nothing, and contestants on "You Bet Your Life" were guaranteed (if memory serves) $25.

Which leads to the second point: What sort of game shows are we considering in this discussion? The issue at hand is that the "contestant versus the house" model used by most current game shows is one that was fairly dormant in the United States between the 1950s and the late 1990s. Can anyone here name a program of that nature that had a significant amount of success in the interval? The gap in time is significant, as it makes a discussion of the evolution of that style difficult, compared with, say, the "contestants versus one another" style of gameplay.

Third, I find connecting this to trends in society suspect, in part because some of the comparisons aren't as abject as this would suggest (for instance, the "society's fault" style of criminology dates to the early twentieth century, and I've seen references to social promotion in the 1930s). Shifts in society certainly are demonstrated with game shows, but care must be taken, as it can be too easy to use a few unrepresentative examples to make a point.

Fourth, to bring up the elephant in the room, game show producers (and program sponsors) of the 1950s didn't want their programs to become a half-hour of failures. Is the surface probability of failure negated at all by the fact that many of the programs in question were, by various means, offering "invisible" assistance?

Finally, to address the last quoted paragraph, while a full answer to this question is impossible (I doubt we could recover everyone who was ever a contestant on any game show in the United States), a viewing of a large representative sample seems to suggest that game show contestants were equally male and female (or, if anything, skewing slightly male) during the prime-time era, and that the "female shift" is connected to the genre's move to daytime programming. Anyone want to do the statistical survey needed to answer this question?

chris319

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So I'm Watching Donwfall...
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 02:57:50 AM »
I think this topic is being way overthought. Michael Davies wanted to bring back The $64,000 Question and had been shopping it around as The $640,000 Question. In order to embellish his game he added lifelines. Immediately it becomes de rigueur for every game, enjoying the glow of the success that WWTBAM had, to have its equivalent of lifelines. I think it's as simple as that.

If these shows were really a reflection of society they wouldn't be asking questions about King Henry VIII, they would be asking questions about Mel Gibson's rant and Lindsay Lohan's legal woes, or things you should have learned in the fifth grade.

Somebody reading this should hook up with Harvey Levin and develop The TMZ Game.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 03:02:59 AM by chris319 »

Fedya

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So I'm Watching Donwfall...
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 07:19:52 AM »
[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244407\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 10:41 PM\'][quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'244405\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 07:15 PM\']Except that Temptation contestants received "lots of love", and you can't put a value on that.[/quote]
Knows the precise cost of "lots of love"
[/quote]
I said "lots of love", not "lots of sex".  ;-)
-- Ted Schuerzinger, now blogging at <a href=\"http://justacineast.blogspot.com/\" target=\"_blank\">http://justacineast.blogspot.com/[/url]

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Jumpondees

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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 08:25:52 AM »
[quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'244420\' date=\'Jul 18 2010, 07:19 AM\'][quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244407\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 10:41 PM\'][quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'244405\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 07:15 PM\']Except that Temptation contestants received "lots of love", and you can't put a value on that.[/quote]
Knows the precise cost of "lots of love"
[/quote]
I said "lots of love", not "lots of sex".  ;-)
[/quote]

LMAO!  "Pimpin' ain't easy!"

Okay...seriously, if that doesn't qualify for "lots of love"...How about THIS?

mmb5

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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 09:43:35 AM »
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'244417\' date=\'Jul 18 2010, 02:57 AM\']If these shows were really a reflection of society they wouldn't be asking questions about King Henry VIII, they would be asking questions about Mel Gibson's rant and Lindsay Lohan's legal woes, or things you should have learned in the fifth grade.

Somebody reading this should hook up with Harvey Levin and develop The TMZ Game.[/quote]

Actually, I would argue that current WWTBAM sort of does that now with one or two questions per stack.  It's a daytime show pretty much now, and the writing reflects that.  

And thanks all for reminding me of some of the 50s consolation prizes.  I would argue that the phone-in era of WWTBAM and $1M Password were typical front/bouns game structures, albeit with a really long bonus game.  Current WWTBAM and the other shows pretty much now drop that conceit entirely, and it's back to being you vs. the house.

As far as contestant makeup between then and now, I give the following:

NYSI -- usually 3 female/1 male or 4 female
MG and Pyramid -- you would see 2 females often, you would rarely see 2 males.
60s Temptation -- Every episode I've seen has been all-female
Early TPIR -- usually 3 female/1 male

I realize I probably went too hyperbolic when I said primarily female.  Many shows were always one each.  But I would guess that it would be at least 60/40 female.  A lot of my evidence is probably gone though.  Look at the attempts made to make WWTBAM more equitable in the phone era.  It ended up changing the nature of the show.
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dscungio

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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 11:25:38 AM »
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'244417\' date=\'Jul 18 2010, 02:57 AM\']Michael Davies wanted to bring back The $64,000 Question and had been shopping it around as The $640,000 Question. In order to embellish his game he added lifelines.[/quote]

Pardon me if I get picky with this.  As I understood it, Michael Eisner was the one who wanted to see a revival of The $64,000 Question.  Davies tried for many years to develop the show as $640kQ under the original game's format but couldn't get it to work right.  It was only after he was given a tape of the UK's WWTBAM (a format that fixed Davies' issues by adding Lifelines and allowing contestants to see the question before making a decision to walk away) that he abandoned his project and chose instead to produce an American version of the British show.

And it was CBS who attempted to produce The $1,064,000 Question in the wake of WWTBAM's success, but because the formats were too similar, it never happened.




Dean

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So I'm Watching Donwfall...
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 01:05:35 PM »
[quote name=\'mmb5\' post=\'244380\' date=\'Jul 17 2010, 05:39 PM\']Is it now a cultural thing reflected in game shows that in order to fail you have to fail repeatedly?  50s shows with money trees, no second chances.  If you were wrong -- you lost.  Everything.  In school -- you failed -- no social promotion.

Any other cultural differences that you have noticed?[/quote]

Look at the more recent hit, "Deal or No Deal." There, it's almost impossible to fail. "Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader?" My, that sets a low bar. "Million Dollar Password," where you actually play a game with ability required, fizzled out.

The bigger cultural difference is not only that audiences want to see people just like them, it has to be just like them but worse. They won't watch anybody just like them but worked hard and cultivated an amazing knowledge of boxing.

"Jeopardy" is the last holdout of the earlier era, where we look at Ken Jennings as a normal guy, but heavens, is he smart. Perhaps the canniest move Merv had with "Wheel of Fortune" is making sure the contestants wouldn't get the puzzles before the folks at home. Look what'a back in the daytime: Not "Press Your Luck," where they ask questions and there's a teaspoon of game strategy. No, it's "Let's Make a Deal," and somehow that's even less cerebral than the original.