Catch 21 situation....

[clemon79]

I just turned on the TV, so I'm not sure what led up to this, but:

It's Round 2 of Catch 21. Dude who just won question has a 19. His only remaining opponent has 11. He has the option to freeze, but he takes a hit. (Upon retrospect, not the worst move.) The card is a 10. Instead of conceding it to his opponent for a 21, he busts himself.

Either way his opponent wins the round, and since his score is lowest, he goes home, fine. But isn't there some sort of bonus for hitting 21 on the nose? Did the guy deny the other dude a bonus just to be a dick?

[Hastin]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'255045\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 11:26 AM\']Either way his opponent wins the round, and since his score is lowest, he goes home, fine. But isn't there some sort of bonus for hitting 21 on the nose? Did the guy deny the other dude a bonus just to be a dick?[/quote]

Depends. If it's a Season 2 or later game, there's a prize bonus for being the first to Catch 21 in the main game. However, if the first 21 has already been caught, there's no bonus.

[Kevin Prather]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'255045\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 11:26 AM\']I just turned on the TV, so I'm not sure what led up to this, but:

It's Round 2 of Catch 21. Dude who just won question has a 19. His only remaining opponent has 11. He has the option to freeze, but he takes a hit. (Upon retrospect, not the worst move.) The card is a 10. Instead of conceding it to his opponent for a 21, he busts himself.

Either way his opponent wins the round, and since his score is lowest, he goes home, fine. But isn't there some sort of bonus for hitting 21 on the nose? Did the guy deny the other dude a bonus just to be a dick?[/quote]
If he has 19 and his opponent has 11, there's all sorts of ways that his opponent can overtake him. Any face or 10 is 21. Any 9 is 20. Little cards give him redraws to 20 or 21. He was probably throwing caution to the wind, figuring that a stay would be waving a white flag, so his only hope was to hit and pray. If he does hit the miracle Ace or Deuce, he stays alive.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255053\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 01:48 PM\']If he has 19 and his opponent has 11, there's all sorts of ways that his opponent can overtake him. Any face or 10 is 21. Any 9 is 20. Little cards give him redraws to 20 or 21. He was probably throwing caution to the wind, figuring that a stay would be waving a white flag, so his only hope was to hit and pray. If he does hit the miracle Ace or Deuce, he stays alive.[/quote]
That would be the "upon retrospect, not the worst move" part I said before. I know WHY he chose to hit. I am speaking specifically to him choosing to bust himself rather than pass it to the other guy for 21 when they are equivalent outcomes for him. As Hastin said, if it's Season 2 (and, thinking about it, it is, because the cards and Power Chips weren't branded) and that's the first 21 of the day, all it did was deny the other guy a bonus prize.

[Kevin Prather]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'255054\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:05 PM\']I am speaking specifically to him choosing to bust himself rather than pass it to the other guy for 21 when they are equivalent outcomes for him.[/quote]
Because as you acknowledged, they might not be equivalent outcomes. He doesn't know the next card out. Hindsight being 20/20, yes, he may have screwed the opponent, but that's not his concern at the moment. There was still a chance for him to win. If the writing was 100% on the wall, then he should concede to the opponent so he can get the bonus.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255055\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:12 PM\']If the writing was 100% on the wall, then he should concede to the opponent so he can get the bonus.[/quote]
Which it was. He has 19, his opponent has 11, he drew a 10, he has to decide what to do with it. He has two choices:

1) Give the other guy the 10, giving him 21, an automatic win, and a bonus prize if it's the first 21 of the day. He is eliminated by virtue of having the low score.

2) Take the 10 for himself, busting. Other guy wins round, same as he would if he'd gotten the 21, except there is no possibility of a bonus prize. He is eliminated by virtue of having the low score.

Note how those last two sentences are the same. That is because they are equivalent outcomes *for him*.

That's the only decision I am talking about here.

[Kevin Prather]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'255058\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:42 PM\'][quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255055\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:12 PM\']If the writing was 100% on the wall, then he should concede to the opponent so he can get the bonus.[/quote]
Which it was. He has 19, his opponent has 11, he drew a 10, he has to decide what to do with it. He has two choices:

1) Give the other guy the 10, giving him 21, an automatic win, and a bonus prize if it's the first 21 of the day. He is eliminated by virtue of having the low score.

2) Take the 10 for himself, busting. Other guy wins round, same as he would if he'd gotten the 21, except there is no possibility of a bonus prize. He is eliminated by virtue of having the low score.

Note how those last two sentences are the same. That is because they are equivalent outcomes *for him*.

That's the only decision I am talking about here.
[/quote]
Oh oh oh. Mea culpa. I had it in my head that he had to either take the card or pass BEFORE seeing the card. I forgot that he gets to see the card, THEN decide what to do with it.

In that case, total dick move. If he loses anyway, give the guy the face. Only exception would be if he had a lead, and his opponent getting the 21 would give him the lead.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255060\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:44 PM\']In that case, total dick move. If he loses anyway, give the guy the face. Only exception would be if he had a lead, and his opponent getting the 21 would give him the lead.[/quote]
Even then, doesn't matter. Guy gets 500 points for winning the hand no matter what. The only thing he controlled was whether the other guy won with 21 or won with 11.

[Kevin Prather]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'255061\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:46 PM\'][quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255060\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:44 PM\']In that case, total dick move. If he loses anyway, give the guy the face. Only exception would be if he had a lead, and his opponent getting the 21 would give him the lead.[/quote]
Even then, doesn't matter. Guy gets 500 points for winning the hand no matter what. The only thing he controlled was whether the other guy won with 21 or won with 11.
[/quote]
Right. I haven't seen the show in a while. Does the guy get additional bonus points for having 21, or is it just the bonus cash?

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255062\' date=\'Jan 19 2011, 02:48 PM\']Right. I haven't seen the show in a while. Does the guy get additional bonus points for having 21, or is it just the bonus cash?[/quote]
Just the prize, from what I understand. Obviously if the 21 carried extra points with it, it would at least alter the decision to one if whether Bust Dude wanted to be a kingmaker or not.

[rjaguar3]

I believe on Adam Nedeff's show, the left contestant decided to bust herself instead of giving Adam 21.  (The other contestant was frozen at 19.)  Adam did not beat 19, so the third contestant won the 500 points.  Incidentally, had the left contestant given Adam 21, she would have advanced to round 3, for the 500 points that the third contestant won in round 1 as a result were enough for her to advance over the left contestant.

[BillCullen1]

If I was in that situation, I would not willingly help another contestant win if I could avoid it, and I wouldn't consider myself a d--- for doing that, either. Just sayin'.

[TLEberle]

But he's going to win whether you help him or not. The only say you have is "Does he win a $600 vacuum set by my hand?"

[Fedya]

The obvious solution is to allow a player who wins a question not to give the card to anybody.  (Likely, that would get edited out for time.)

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'255287\' date=\'Jan 22 2011, 08:50 AM\']If I was in that situation, I would not willingly help another contestant win if I could avoid it, and I wouldn't consider myself a d--- for doing that, either. Just sayin'.[/quote]
Except you can't avoid it in this case. He's gonna win the round, and you're done for the day, those are givens, there are no ways to avoid either of those. The only question is whether you let the guy win a bonus prize on the way out the door. That's it.

Do you still screw him?

(I can see one single argument for screwing him: kingmaking. There's still a third round to be played and the other player who is advancing would still have a shot to win that bonus prize for herself. I don't think it's a good argument, though. If you can guarantee the prize is paid out to someone as opposed to "maybe," and you have no chance to win it yourself, I think the right thing to do is to ensure it's paid out.)

[quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'255293\' date=\'Jan 22 2011, 09:33 AM\']The obvious solution is to allow a player who wins a question not to give the card to anybody.  (Likely, that would get edited out for time.)[/quote]
Well, technically the option is still there: dude has the option to freeze immediately instead of taking a card. He chose not to do so and at that point takes his life into his own hands. (And I can see the argument since the other guy is going to have a crack at that card no matter what - if he freezes, the other guy just starts drawing cards, and beats him when that 10 comes up anyhow.)

What he can't do is say "Oh, I just wanted the points; no card, play on." And I'm fine with that, because that would be stupid.