Red Herring

[parliboy]

Upfront stuff: The following describes a format by me.  Please steal as long as you don't profit.  Please add constructive criticism to make it better.

Every year one of my responsibilities at one of the gaming cons I work with is to create, writing material for, handle tech, and co-host the convention game show.  After two years of a modified Duel format (that removed instant elimination), this year's project was an original format called Red Herring.

Although Duel was somewhat popular (I had decent questions and the "audience" enjoyed the play-along factor), it took way too long to complete a one-night tournament.  So we opted for a system that allowed all teams to compete at once.  What I ended up with was a twelve-team game that accomplished that purpose and forced me to stretch my question writing skills a bit.

The input system for Red Herring is a twelve PS3 Bluetooth Buzz buzzers using the SimpleHIDWrite hack that's fairly well known at this point.  (For the unfamiliar, you are able to convert a set of four buzzers and a Bluetooth dongle into what the PC recognizes as a 20-button joystick).  Add to this JoyToKey (which converts joystick presses into keystrokes) and you can pass keyboard input into Flash for easy processing.

The basic Red Herring question format was one of list completion.  The two-person teams are given a list of three items, followed by a set of four choices.

In round one, identify the item that completes the list.  For example, the first question (and one that everyone got right, which was a good starting point to get their feet wet) was this:

Charging, Blocking, Traveling, ...
False Start
Slashing
Goaltending
High-Sticking

The sports-oriented people in the game will recognize the basketball theme of the question and choose "Goaltending" as the answer.

Each of the choices is color-coordinated to one of the buttons on the buzzer.  (See a sample screen shot.) The teams have 75 seconds to deliberate and lock in their answers.  They can change answers as many times as they want, but are locked out of the system when time expires.

• Correct answers are worth 10 points.
• Incorrect answers are worth points equal to the number of people who gave that choice (So you get at least one point just for showing up).

The reason for the odd consolation prize is related by the title of the format: the Red Herring.
Later questions sometimes (but not always) have much better distracters written into the choices.  For example:

Chemistry, Physics, Literature, ...
Mathematics
Technology
Engineering
Medicine

While many people fall into the trap of choose Mathematics in thinking about academic courses, the right answer is Medicine, as these are Nobel Prizes.  Teams that spot this trap can use their fifth, big giant red button, to indicate that what their answer is not what they believe to be right, but what they believe to be "least wrong" – that is, they are wagering on which of the three incorrect choices will be given most frequently.

Red Herring scoring works as follows.

• The most frequently given incorrect answer: 20 points
• Other incorrect answers: 0 points
• The right answer: -20 points

Ties are unfriendly; if two wrong answers are equally most frequent, then that question has no Red Herring.
This last for 10 questions, and then I shamelessly rip off Peter Sarrett by switching to a quick interstitial round that uses different rules, much as he does when he runs convention game shows.  For this question, I supply you with a list of items, and players must add to it by writing a response down on a piece of paper.  For example:

Add to the following list:
Donut
Black
Ass
Pot

• 10 points for adding to the list
• 10 bonus points for giving a unique, unduplicated answer.

Round Two's format is called "Odd Man Out".  Instead of picking the item that fits the list, pick the item that does not fit the list.  And because it's a game show, we are cliché and double the points.  So for example:

White, Green, Scarlet, ...
Mustard
Plum
Peacock
Tangerine

I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to recognize the theme of the list.

Round Three is a triple points round called "Extension".  All of the choices fit into the list; however, the three starting clues are in sequence, and your answer must be the one that fits next sequentially.  For example:

Sun, Moon, Mars, ...
Thor
Saturn
Frige
Woden

High score at the end wins.  And with all those points floating around, the first year saw a two-point spread between first and second place.  So I was pretty happy about that.

[Joe Mello]

[quote name=\'parliboy\' post=\'256824\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 03:46 AM\']Teams that spot this trap can use their fifth, big giant red button, to indicate that what their answer is.[/quote]
How?  Is it red button then choice button?  Also, why 75 seconds per question?  It seems rather long.

I would consider tinkering with the scoring system if only because you present yourself with the scenario (albeit a very long shot) where the 2 people who answer correctly can get as many points as the 10 people who got it wrong.  I'd also like to see 5 choices for each question, but that's asking for the impossible.

Finally, not a suggestion but a caution about the Red Herrings.  Make sure that the correct answer(s) are clear enough that the game stays "Pick the correct answer" and not "Pick the answer I have on my card"

[TLEberle]

[quote name=\'Joe Mello\' post=\'256876\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 04:15 PM\']I would consider tinkering with the scoring system if only because you present yourself with the scenario (albeit a very long shot) where the 2 people who answer correctly can get as many points as the 10 people who got it wrong.[/quote] And in that case you need to be the team that deviates and chooses the Red Herring answer, doubling your points. For teams that pick "Red Herring," does that remove a point from the other teams who chose that incorrect answer? Because if everyone picks the same Red Herring answer, then everyone's going to be very sad when the "here's what you all said" screen is revealed.

Finally, not a suggestion but a caution about the Red Herrings.  Make sure that the correct answer(s) are clear enough that the game stays "Pick the correct answer" and not "Pick the answer I have on my card"

Isn't the Red Herring the one wrong answer given by the most teams, and not chosen beforehand?

I noticed that from the Nobel category. Sure, you can make the case that they're all prize categories, but what happens when someone says "but my answer fits category thus-and-so?

[parliboy]

Responding to Joe and then to Travis:

[quote name=\'Joe Mello\' post=\'256876\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 06:15 PM\'][quote name=\'parliboy\' post=\'256824\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 03:46 AM\']Teams that spot this trap can use their fifth, big giant red button, to indicate that what their answer is.[/quote]
How?  Is it red button then choice button?  Also, why 75 seconds per question?  It seems rather long.[/quote]
The big red button isn't a choice button.  It's simply to activate the Red Herring option, signaling what they believe their choice to be.  They still then have to answer one of the four choices. (It should be noted that while teams are locking in their answers, the answers are private.  However, the use of the Red Herring is not, as I wanted to ability to have silent cooperation.)

75 seconds is long.  But for some of the questions, it's a necessary amount of time.  Some of the questions are very tricky or obscure (for example, being able to sort the order of construction of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World).  And we're growing up in an era where they're used to having unlimited time on a game show.  75 seconds is actually a reduction from the 90 seconds I allotted for Duel.  And remember, teams = a bit more time required for deliberation.

I would consider tinkering with the scoring system if only because you present yourself with the scenario (albeit a very long shot) where the 2 people who answer correctly can get as many points as the 10 people who got it wrong.  I'd also like to see 5 choices for each question, but that's asking for the impossible.

The primary organizer of the con (and host of the show) asked me what would happen if 11 team came up with the same wrong answer and 1 got it right.  My response was that in that case, the Red Herring must have been really strong so shame on them for not biting.  That said, I do want to refine some things in the scoring system.

Finally, not a suggestion but a caution about the Red Herrings.  Make sure that the correct answer(s) are clear enough that the game stays "Pick the correct answer" and not "Pick the answer I have on my card"

Making it clear is a big issue.  Big enough for me that I'm seriously considered making last year's round 2 and round 3 into next year's round 1 and round 2, and then inventing a new round 3.


-----


[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'256891\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 08:36 PM\']For teams that pick "Red Herring," does that remove a point from the other teams who chose that incorrect answer? Because if everyone picks the same Red Herring answer, then everyone's going to be very sad when the "here's what you all said" screen is revealed.[/quote]
It does not deduct a point.  If a choice gets 2 "incorrect" votes and 2 "Red Herring" votes, then the 2 incorrect votes are getting four points.  The Red Herring votes will get either 20 or 0, depending.

I noticed that from the Nobel category. Sure, you can make the case that they're all prize categories, but what happens when someone says "but my answer fits category thus-and-so?

Agreed.  This is the other reason I want to change up the rounds as mentioned above.  With more choices that fit the list, it's harder for someone to make that argument.  I almost got in trouble with this on a draft of one question until I realized the error.

[TLEberle]

Since you're here, I am absolutely in the dark when it comes to the "add to a list" question, though it might just be that the example you gave is impenetrable.

[parliboy]

[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'256904\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 09:52 PM\']Since you're here, I am absolutely in the dark when it comes to the "add to a list" question, though it might just be that the example you gave is impenetrable.[/quote]
They're types of holes.

[TLEberle]

[quote name=\'parliboy\' post=\'256908\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 08:22 PM\'][quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'256904\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 09:52 PM\']Since you're here, I am absolutely in the dark when it comes to the "add to a list" question, though it might just be that the example you gave is impenetrable.[/quote]They're types of holes.[/quote]And I write for a show that would look down their nose at "types of hole."

I think I need a beer to cry into.

[cyberjoek]

[quote name=\'parliboy\' post=\'256901\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 10:43 PM\'][quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'256891\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 08:36 PM\']For teams that pick "Red Herring," does that remove a point from the other teams who chose that incorrect answer? Because if everyone picks the same Red Herring answer, then everyone's going to be very sad when the "here's what you all said" screen is revealed.[/quote]
It does not deduct a point.  If a choice gets 2 "incorrect" votes and 2 "Red Herring" votes, then the 2 incorrect votes are getting four points.  The Red Herring votes will get either 20 or 0, depending.
[/quote]

Under this ruling the best strategy for the gimme question on basketball is to wait until the last few seconds, press Red Herring, then pick any of the wrong answers.  Assuming that every other team gets it right then I've just made 10 extra points.

As to scoring, here's my take:

You're trying to reward players who correctly figure out when the room is wrong with the most points, correct answers 2nd most, wrong answers consolation prize.

To achieve that:

Red Herring, Highest Wrong Answer: 10 + 2 per team selecting answer (that's just teams that guessed that wrong, not teams who Red Herring-ed it)
Red Herring, Other Wrong Answer: 2 per team selecting answer (excluding red herrings)
Correct Answer: 10 + # of teams wrong (including red herrings)
Wrong Answer: # of teams selecting answer (including red herrings)
Red Herring, Correct Answer: 0

Let me use one of your questions as an example:
[codebox]"Chemistry, Physics, Literature, ..."
Answer      Guesses      RH   Guess Value   RH Value
Mathematics   8      1   09      26
Medicine   3      0   19      0[/codebox]

It adds value to getting difficult questions right and spotting great Red Herrings.  It also means that if you Red Herring an answer someone has to have actually answered it for you to score points.

Just my 2c
-Joe Kavanagh

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'cyberjoek\' post=\'256914\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 09:51 PM\']Under this ruling the best strategy for the gimme question on basketball is to wait until the last few seconds, press Red Herring, then pick any of the wrong answers.  Assuming that every other team gets it right then I've just made 10 extra points.[/quote]
You assume in a room full of board game geeks that that is a gimme question.

[parliboy]

Again doing two replies in one box:

[quote name=\'cyberjoek\' post=\'256914\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 11:51 PM\']As to scoring, here's my take:

You're trying to reward players who correctly figure out when the room is wrong with the most points, correct answers 2nd most, wrong answers consolation prize.

<snip>

It adds value to getting difficult questions right and spotting great Red Herrings.  It also means that if you Red Herring an answer someone has to have actually answered it for you to score points.[/quote]

This math seems interesting.  I'm apprehensive for three reasons.

1: The scoring is bit more complicated than my system.  While most people in the audience are certainly capable of "getting" it, do I want to use a complex scoring system in a game show environment.
2: Causing ties in a question to cause there to be no Red Herring is what is currently in place to limit people sneaking in for a bonus they don't deserve.  But philosophically, if only one team goes Red Herring and the rest get a right answer, does that team deserve to be rewarded for skillful play?
3: In practice, a Red Herring score often looks more like this in your scoring system:  

[codebox][font=\"Courier New\"]"Chemistry, Physics, Literature, ..."
Answer       Guesses  RH Guess  Value  RH Value
Mathematics     4        2        6      18
Technology      2        0        2       4
Engineering     2        0        2       4
Medicine        4        0       18       0[/font][/codebox]

This makes the Red Herring not be more valuable than the right answer.


-----



[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'256917\' date=\'Feb 11 2011, 12:29 AM\'][quote name=\'cyberjoek\' post=\'256914\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 09:51 PM\']Under this ruling the best strategy for the gimme question on basketball is to wait until the last few seconds, press Red Herring, then pick any of the wrong answers.  Assuming that every other team gets it right then I've just made 10 extra points.[/quote]
You assume in a room full of board game geeks that that is a gimme question.
[/quote]

You'd think that.  But it was a sports-aware crowd.  All twelve teams got it right.