A Random Question

[Otm Shank]

I often wondered how The Joker's Wild or Bullseye determined the categories or values to be displayed in the windows. The Joker's Wild used a slot-machine motif, but even slot machines are not random (the results are programmed in advance). So were the spin results prerandomized or was there some sort of mechanical intervention?

On Bullseye, it is possible that time a contestant could have impacted the shuffle. Once those swirl graphics were visible, did the categories continue to shuffle, or was the next slide in order displayed? The bonus game may have operated differently than the main game, as well.

Just to throw another in the mix, were the shuffling patterns predetermined for the front game of Tic-Tac-Dough?

As for the theory of a predetermined random order, I think the quiz show scandals that involved Barry & Enright would have kept the producers from knowing the order.

Was it ever publicly disclosed how these operated?

[TLEberle]

I often wondered how The Joker's Wild or Bullseye determined the categories or values to be displayed in the windows. The Joker's Wild used a slot-machine motif, but even slot machines are not random (the results are programmed in advance). So were the spin results prerandomized or was there some sort of mechanical intervention?

The "slot machine" was three slide projectors spinning around until a mechanical arm would grab a slide and stop it.

Just to throw another in the mix, were the shuffling patterns predetermined for the front game of Tic-Tac-Dough

Categories moved along a predetermined path from box to box.

As for the theory of a predetermined random order, I think the quiz show scandals that involved Barry & Enright would have kept the producers from knowing the order.

How come? As long as they don't say "random" when it ain't, where's the bad?

[Otm Shank]

How come? As long as they don't say "random" when it ain't, where's the bad?

No bad, but, for them particularly, I would expect they would be extra, extra careful to avoid even the slightest whiff of impropriety.

If I understand your description of The Joker's Wild, each wheel would advance the same number of spaces, in essence, correct? I did not see any variability in how long the wheels spun, but maybe there was enough to keep it unpredictable.

[TLEberle]

No bad, but, for them particularly, I would expect they would be extra, extra careful to avoid even the slightest whiff of impropriety.

You're absolutely correct, which is why they did.

If I understand your description of The Joker's Wild, each wheel would advance the same number of spaces, in essence, correct? I did not see any variability in how long the wheels spun, but maybe there was enough to keep it unpredictable.

The unpredictability would be in the grabbing arm, I guess. Plus the speed of the projector wheels, I suppose.

[rjaguar3]

even slot machines are not random (the results are programmed in advance).

This is a bit inaccurate.  Slot machines, in fact, generate loads of random numbers every second.  The exact timing of the lever pull (or button press) determines which random number is used to generate the result.  Pulling just a split second earlier or later would generate an entirely different result.  In theory, someone with split second accuracy in timing and a knowledge of the order of random numbers to be generated could know the outcome in advance.  In practice, this is impossible.  (Not to mention that if the numbers are in fact truly random [generated from something that is methematically unpredictable, like heat radiation or radioactive decay] as opposed to pseudorandom [generated according to a deterministic algorithm that appears random].)

[Neumms]

[If I understand your description of The Joker's Wild, each wheel would advance the same number of spaces, in essence, correct? I did not see any variability in how long the wheels spun, but maybe there was enough to keep it unpredictable.

No, because the three wheels start at once, but stop one at a time. That's how you get different combinations. I presume it's the same way old, mechanical slot machines worked.

Electronic slot machines aren't supposed to be programmed either. Your odds of winning a jackpot should be identical on every spin, even if you just hit a jackpot. The display may not reflect this--the graphics show near misses to keep you playing, even though to the machine, it's just a loss.

[Otm Shank]

No, because the three wheels start at once, but stop one at a time. That's how you get different combinations.

Yes, I was trying to convey that, that each wheel might have had its own distance that it travels before it locks into place. Like, the first window would always, hypothetically, net 2 slides forward in sequence (after several revolutions) because of the fixed rotation. But, perhaps like a windup toy, there would not be such a precise rotation speed, as well as other factors, to render it a completely variable (but not random) outcome.

My theory on the Bullseye, at least for the bonus round, was that the sequence was already set as to what was to appear in each window on each spin. When a contestant won or surrendered, and they "spun the information" it looked like they merely cycled through a single-projector carousel.

[clemon79]

Yes, I was trying to convey that, that each wheel might have had its own distance that it travels before it locks into place.].

Well, yeah, pretty much by definition. The third wheel always travels the furthest, as they all start simultaneously and it is the last to stop.

But, perhaps like a windup toy, there would not be such a precise rotation speed, as well as other factors, to render it a completely variable (but not random) outcome.

There are enough mechanical factors at play here (a spinning reel with a jury-rigged stopping mechanism, whether the spin was actually stopped by hand instead of on some kind of timing, etc.), that I'm not sure why you're not willing to call it "random." If it's because that, yes, with a perfect knowledge of the physics and forces involved you could conceivably guess where the projector is going to stop, well, then, sure, but I suggest the same could be said of a flipped coin.

My theory on the Bullseye, at least for the bonus round, was that the sequence was already set as to what was to appear in each window on each spin.

My theory is, being a Barry & Enright show, there is no way in nine purple hells they would do it that way.

[DrBear]

All of this was one reason I never liked TJW when I first saw it. It seemed too easy to manipulate a result by fixing whatever questions came up, or to give one player an easy win. And that was BEFORE I really know who Barry and Enright were.

[Fedya]

rjaguar3 wrote:

(Not to mention that if the numbers are in fact truly random [generated from something that is methematically unpredictable, like heat radiation or radioactive decay]...)

As John von Neumann said, "Anybody who uses deterministic methods to obtain random numbers is, of course, living in a state of sin."

But I'd like to see your radioactive slot machine.  ;-)  I presume it's made from those inanimate carbon rods that were the toxic waste of Set For Life?

[rjaguar3]

rjaguar3 wrote:

(Not to mention that if the numbers are in fact truly random [generated from something that is methematically unpredictable, like heat radiation or radioactive decay]...)

As John von Neumann said, "Anybody who uses deterministic methods to obtain random numbers is, of course, living in a state of sin."

But I'd like to see your radioactive slot machine.  ;-)  I presume it's made from those inanimate carbon rods that were the toxic waste of Set For Life?

If only.

After doing some research, I found some web pages with info on the subject:
http://enginova.com/radioactive_random_number_genera.htm
http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/how3.html