"Lost" episodes resurfacing

[Bryce L.]

I know that every so often, a series with purportedly lost episodes will have some, if not all, of their missing episodes end up being recovered (with either the discovery of the first two seasons of the CBS-era Joker's Wild or the discovery of the 1968 NBC Primetime run of Hollywood Squares being the biggest finds, depending on who you ask).

Also, I know that in the two examples I just cited, both of those were found sitting in old archives (the Joker episodes being in the vaults at WCBS in New York, not sure about exactly where the Squares episodes turned up).

My question is, are there any other common sources for finds, aside from searching studio or network archives?

[clemon79]

Erm, such as...what? Where else would there be a broadcast-quality archive of a given series?

[Matt Ottinger]

My question is, are there any other common sources for finds, aside from searching studio or network archives?

In terms of large collections, probably not.  Nobody's going to have the entire run of The Wizard of Odds in his garage.  There are almost certainly large collections sitting in network, studio or syndicator archives just gathering dust and/or deteriorating because there's no financial incentive for them to be unearthed.  By all accounts, there is a wealth of treasures buried in the Library of Congress that will probably never see the light of day either, including lots of original Concentration episodes.

Still, I think we're always going to see rare finds popping up an episode at a time from any number of sources.  A lot of late-seventies, early-eighties rarities are showing up on YouTube courtesy of some contestant who recorded himself on an early VCR.  There are also collectors who don't share all their treasures publicly for one reason or another.  Some of us (myself included) have seen things privately that other collectors might not know exist.  The Paley Centers in LA and NY, as well as the UCLA archive, have many rare videos that may someday, somehow, reach collectors' hands.  And then there are folks like the YouTube user videoarchives1000 who clearly has a lot of rare treasures that he's only recently begun to share with the world.  Maybe other collectors like that will start uploading their rarities.  I'm always hopeful for more rare delights.

[Bryce L.]

Erm, such as...what? Where else would there be a broadcast-quality archive of a given series?

Or ANYTHING to prove that the footage hasn't been wiped from all existence

[Bryce L.]

My question is, are there any other common sources for finds, aside from searching studio or network archives?

In terms of large collections, probably not.  Nobody's going to have the entire run of The Wizard of Odds in his garage.  There are almost certainly large collections sitting in network, studio or syndicator archives just gathering dust and/or deteriorating because there's no financial incentive for them to be unearthed.  By all accounts, there is a wealth of treasures buried in the Library of Congress that will probably never see the light of day either, including lots of original Concentration episodes.

Still, I think we're always going to see rare finds popping up an episode at a time from any number of sources.  A lot of late-seventies, early-eighties rarities are showing up on YouTube courtesy of some contestant who recorded himself on an early VCR.  There are also collectors who don't share all their treasures publicly for one reason or another.  Some of us (myself included) have seen things privately that other collectors might not know exist.  The Paley Centers in LA and NY, as well as the UCLA archive, have many rare videos that may someday, somehow, reach collectors' hands.  And then there are folks like the YouTube user videoarchives1000 who clearly has a lot of rare treasures that he's only recently begun to share with the world.  Maybe other collectors like that will start uploading their rarities.  I'm always hopeful for more rare delights.

As much as you can answer without breaking anyone's confidence, is there footage you have been privy to, of series that are otherwise believed ENTIRELY wiped? As in, not even a poor off-air copy known outside of what you have seen?

[Bryce L.]

OK, perhaps I cited bad examples to start this thread. Let me rephrase that, when footage surfaces, where it was otherwise not known to exist, what usually ends up being the source of that find (and I'm not restricting it to broadcast-quality finds, or entire-series finds, either)

[Bryce L.]

There are almost certainly large collections sitting in network, studio or syndicator archives just gathering dust and/or deteriorating because there's no financial incentive for them to be unearthed.  

I agree with you, because there is no money to be had, the people who own those archives don't give a hoot about searching through them.

But let me ask you this: Who says there has to be a carrot dangled in front of them? What's wrong with donating these archives to organizations that will, if necessary, do work to make the footage at least watchable again, and then put it online for all to see, free of charge?

[Matt Ottinger]

As much as you can answer without breaking anyone's confidence, is there footage you have been privy to, of series that are otherwise believed ENTIRELY wiped? As in, not even a poor off-air copy known outside of what you have seen?

I'm not exactly sure what specific shows you might be talking about, but in general, yes, I've probably seen some things that most people think are either destroyed or inaccessible.  

OK, perhaps I cited bad examples to start this thread. Let me rephrase that, when footage surfaces, where it was otherwise not known to exist, what usually ends up being the source of that find (and I'm not restricting it to broadcast-quality finds, or entire-series finds, either)

I think my earlier answer still applies.

[Matt Ottinger]

But let me ask you this: Who says there has to be a carrot dangled in front of them? What's wrong with donating these archives to organizations that will, if necessary, do work to make the footage at least watchable again, and then put it online for all to see, free of charge?

Even if a commercial enterprise suddenly took leave of its senses and gave away a bunch of product that they own, there is a considerable expense to transferring older, obsolete formats to something viewable.  That sort of stuff is just not done merely to satisfy the curiosity of collectors who want to see it "free of charge".   There are also all sorts of legal matters to consider.  Trust me, this is not a realistic option.

[mmb5]

Even if a commercial enterprise suddenly took leave of its senses and gave away a bunch of product that they own, there is a considerable expense to transferring older, obsolete formats to something viewable.  That sort of stuff is just not done merely to satisfy the curiosity of collectors who want to see it "free of charge".   There are also all sorts of legal matters to consider.  Trust me, this is not a realistic option.

The quote I was given once was $800 for a standard 2" tape, and you have to pay it whether they can convert it or not.  Even I don't think it's worth it.

[Bryce L.]

But let me ask you this: Who says there has to be a carrot dangled in front of them? What's wrong with donating these archives to organizations that will, if necessary, do work to make the footage at least watchable again, and then put it online for all to see, free of charge?

Even if a commercial enterprise suddenly took leave of its senses and gave away a bunch of product that they own, there is a considerable expense to transferring older, obsolete formats to something viewable.  That sort of stuff is just not done merely to satisfy the curiosity of collectors who want to see it "free of charge".   There are also all sorts of legal matters to consider.  Trust me, this is not a realistic option.

I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached. And I guess I didn't consider the kinds of expenses places like the Internet Archive run into.

[TLEberle]

I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached.

Like, such as?

[Bryce L.]

As much as you can answer without breaking anyone's confidence, is there footage you have been privy to, of series that are otherwise believed ENTIRELY wiped? As in, not even a poor off-air copy known outside of what you have seen?

I'm not exactly sure what specific shows you might be talking about, but in general, yes, I've probably seen some things that most people think are either destroyed or inaccessible.  

I didn't have any specific examples in mind when I asked that, for the record.

OK, perhaps I cited bad examples to start this thread. Let me rephrase that, when footage surfaces, where it was otherwise not known to exist, what usually ends up being the source of that find (and I'm not restricting it to broadcast-quality finds, or entire-series finds, either)

I think my earlier answer still applies.

I didn't think anything was wrong with your example. Just clemon helped me to see I may have written my initial post in a bad way, and I thank him for that.

[clemon79]

I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached. And I guess I didn't consider the kinds of expenses places like the Internet Archive run into.

As a result of The Mouse's ultimate control of copyright law in this country, is there ANY television that fits under this heading, almost by definition?

[rjaguar3]

I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached. And I guess I didn't consider the kinds of expenses places like the Internet Archive run into.

As a result of The Mouse's ultimate control of copyright law in this country, is there ANY television that fits under this heading, almost by definition?

The only class of TV shows I can think of as being in the public domain are ones that registered for federal copyright prior to 1964 and then did not timely renew the registration.  That's basically it.