On Air Practice Rounds

[Jeremy Nelson]

So I\'m going to take the long winded way here to get to the subject-


A friend of mine was arguing with me that the captain on your Family Feud team should be your best player- I then retorted by saying that your best player needs to be in the fourth position, since Round 4 is the only round that mathematically matters nowadays, and you should have your second best player should be at the end as Sudden Death insurance. Anyhow, it got me thinking- are there any other shows where the initial rounds don\'t mathematically matter? I can only think of two- add more if you know more.


Body Language- the first two $100 puzzles don\'t make any difference to getting a player to the $500 mark. The game is a best 2-of-3 from the $250 puzzles onwards.


Super Password- the $100 puzzle is a warmup. Regardless of who wins that first puzzle, it\'s a best 2-of-3 from the $200 puzzle onwards.


Davidson and early Bergeron Squares only halfway count- you could sleep through the first two rounds and catch up- time is just against you once you hit Game 3.

[TLEberle]

The Cheap Show as a joke, Name That Tune as serious.

[clemon79]

Name That Tune as serious.

 

I will argue Name That Tune. Winning either of the first two rounds excuses you from having to play the one-tune tiebreaker if you also win Bid-A-Note. I\'m not saying that\'s not an extremely minor thing, but Words Have Meanings, and if it has *any* impact on the game, no matter how small, that\'s not a practice round.

[TLEberle]

And if the first two rounds go to the same person, it is possible that they ended up as practice.

/so words have meaning now, and not when I point out what a word means. Ponderous.

[clemon79]

And if the first two rounds go to the same person, it is possible that they ended up as practice.

 

But they didn\'t. Now they can potentially win the game without having to win Bid-A-Note at all.

 

This is one of those laundry-list topics where the second you stop being hard-line with the definition, it completely loses whatever meaning it might have had.

 

Winning the first puzzle on Password Plus has no bearing on the outcome of the game. Period.

 

Winning one or both of the first two rounds on Name That Tune absolutely has bearing on the outcome of the game. It might not be hugely important, and certainly the weight of Bid-A-Note (and the lack thereof of the earlier rounds) is a damned lot greater than how it was represented on the show, but there is bearing.

[Jeremy Nelson]

And if the first two rounds go to the same person, it is possible that they ended up as practice.

Password Plus has no bearing on the outcome of the game. Period.

Did you mean Super Password? Because I\'m pretty sure in the $300 format, the first puzzle absolutely had bearing on the game. As a matter of fact, the 10/10/20 format on Name That Tune is the same format on Password Plus- just increase the values tenfold.


I think there\'s two different definitions going on here, and the shows named fall into one of the two:


Mathematical Unimportance- whether you win or lose early rounds doesn\'t matter because the game only mathematically begins after a certain point. (Super Password, Body Language)


\"Asleep at the Wheel\" Unimportance- winning early rounds can count in making it mathematically easier for you to win a game in later rounds. If you do happen to fall asleep at the wheel though, the game\'s scoring format makes it possible to catch up in a single round (Name That Tune, Non-Marshall Squares, Password Plus). You could potentially throw a show like Wheel of Fortune in there due to the most recent structure, but because dollars aren\'t awarded uniformly like the other shows on the list, then that\'s another can of worms.

[PYLdude]

Password Puzzle One on Password Plus had zero bearing on the game throughout the entire series.  Puzzle Two did, because it determined for certain how many puzzles it was going to take to decide a victor until the scoring format change rendered it just as useless.

[TLEberle]

I never thought of it this way because I\'m more focused on solving the puzzle and playing the Password part, but the 100-100-200-200 scoring is no different than what Name That Tune did, with 10-10-20-1, but Name That Tune has more time to ponder that part of the game, I suppose.

[clemon79]

Did you mean Super Password? Because I\'m pretty sure in the $300 format, the first puzzle absolutely had bearing on the game. As a matter of fact, the 10/10/20 format on Name That Tune is the same format on Password Plus- just increase the values tenfold.

No, I meant Password Plus, but you raise an interesting point, because I didn\'t really think of the tiebreaker tune as Round 4. There\'s still a difference in my mind, and here\'s why: on NTT you are performing a different activity every round (and in the case of one round a significantly more minor one), whereas P+ is the same activity each round.

Now, why does that make a tinker\'s damn of difference? And you know, I can\'t tell you, so maybe it doesn\'t. You definitely got me to look at it all from a different angle, so maybe I need to step back from my assertion. Now THAT\'S ponderous.

[Jeremy Nelson]

There\'s still a difference in my mind, and here\'s why: on NTT you are performing a different activity every round (and in the case of one round a significantly more minor one), whereas P+ is the same activity each round.Now, why does that make a tinker\'s damn of difference? And you know, I can\'t tell you, so maybe it doesn\'t. You definitely got me to look at it all from a different angle, so maybe I need to step back from my assertion. Now THAT\'S ponderous.

It\'s all about looking at it from a pure numbers perspective. Like you said, round activity doesn\'t really matter. The rounds could be Physical Challenge/Connecting Wall/Bid A Note for all we care, but as long as there\'s a 10-10-20 point structure, the fact still remains that someone who takes a nap in the 10 point rounds stays soundly in the game by grabbing the final 20.


At the end of the day, however, your assessment is correct. The first two rounds do mathematically count- they just decide the balance of power for the third round. If I win at least one of those first two rounds, then that gives me the chance to win the game outright, rather than needing to win that third round just to force the game to Sudden Death. Same applies to Family Feud- outside of absolutely dismal bank wins, if you don\'t get swept, you will have the chance to win outright in Round 4.

[Mr. Armadillo]

When I clicked on this thread, I thinking of literal practice rounds, like the practice ball in Superball.

[Unrealtor]

Password Puzzle One on Password Plus had zero bearing on the game throughout the entire series. Puzzle Two did, because it determined for certain how many puzzles it was going to take to decide a victor until the scoring format change rendered it just as useless.

 

Huh? In the $300 format, if you win the first puzzle, you only have to win the third puzzle to win the game, regardless of whether or not you win the second. That\'s more than zero bearing on the game. It\'s true that you don\'t know until the end of the second puzzle whether the third round will be winner-take-all, but that doesn\'t make the first round irrelevant. (As opposed to Super Password where it\'s mathematically impossible for the $100 round to make the difference between a player winning and not winning.) For the $500 P+ format, sweeping all three $100 puzzles means you only have to win one $200 puzzle before your opponent has to win three.

 

But the 1x-1x-2x-tiebreaker format from P+ and NTT seems like it would be fascinating to take a look at from a game theory perspective. The only advantage winning both of the first two rounds has over winning only one is that it makes it more difficult for your opponent to win the game, even if it doesn\'t change what you need to do to win.

[clemon79]

Huh? In the $300 format, if you win the first puzzle, you only have to win the third puzzle to win the game, regardless of whether or not you win the second.

Christ, you\'re right and my math sucks. I think that explains my puzzlement over Name That Tune, too.

 

(Still applies on Super Password, tho.)