Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Twenty One photo  (Read 10326 times)

JasonA1

  • Executive Producer
  • Posts: 3147
Twenty One photo
« on: June 19, 2023, 02:03:47 PM »
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/jack-barry-as-host-of-the-nbc-twenty-one-tv-game-show-news-photo/177997147

Here's a photo of a different set for Twenty One than I've ever seen on video. The pilot's on YouTube, and has "SPONSOR" in place of Geritol's name everywhere, so that's not the explanation. The date of "circa 1957" doesn't offer certainty this was from later in the run, but it certainly could have been. Anybody have any insight?

-Jason
Game Show Forum Muckety-Muck

TLEberle

  • Member
  • Posts: 15896
  • Rules Constable
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2023, 02:21:30 PM »
Circa 1957 could mean earlier than that, so maybe runthroughs to see how various things would look on stage and on-camera. (The fact that the scoreboards were on the front of the booths indicates that they got that right.) I can’t imagine holding a steady shot on a challenger but you can’t see her score but when we get a close-up on Jack we get a pair of scores with no context.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2023, 02:43:17 AM by TLEberle »
If you didn’t create it, it isn’t your content.

Kevin Prather

  • Member
  • Posts: 6772
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2023, 02:29:45 PM »
In this picture the booths are facing inward towards each other, so having the scoreboards on the booths wouldn't work for that design. Heck, nothing about Twenty One works with that design.

Adam Nedeff

  • Member
  • Posts: 1800
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2023, 02:31:04 PM »
I've had a chance to view some kinescopes that aren't out in the wild, and I can pinpoint the date on this one; this is September 26, 1956, the third episode of the series. The original isolation booths were ENORMOUS and based on the angles of the close-ups, and based on the way the wide shot of the set was framed on the actual show, it appears that either the camera operators were physically inside the booths with the contestants, or they had a peek-a-boo window on the side of the booth for the lens of the camera to shoot through.

JasonA1

  • Executive Producer
  • Posts: 3147
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2023, 02:49:19 PM »
Neat! Thank you. I was thrown namely because of the pilot, and because this set looked so much more like a complete thought compared to the one we know from other extant episodes.

-Jason
Game Show Forum Muckety-Muck

MSTieScott

  • Executive Producer
  • Posts: 1916
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2023, 03:20:27 PM »
Heck, nothing about Twenty One works

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Kevin Prather

  • Member
  • Posts: 6772
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2023, 03:21:33 PM »
Heck, nothing about Twenty One works

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I mean...

JasonA1

  • Executive Producer
  • Posts: 3147
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2023, 04:11:40 PM »
Related to Scott & Kevin's comments: to this day, I've probably only watched the original Twenty One for a minute or two at a time -- same goes for the Jim Lange pilot. Knowing the episodes were rigged, I didn't feel a desire to watch the choreography play out in real time. That's why I've always been curious how the game would go played under its original rules, legitimately.

-Jason
Game Show Forum Muckety-Muck

Adam Nedeff

  • Member
  • Posts: 1800
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2023, 04:32:07 PM »
Related to Scott & Kevin's comments: to this day, I've probably only watched the original Twenty One for a minute or two at a time -- same goes for the Jim Lange pilot. Knowing the episodes were rigged, I didn't feel a desire to watch the choreography play out in real time. That's why I've always been curious how the game would go played under its original rules, legitimately.

-Jason
During the days of social distancing when we were all afraid to be in the same room, I set up a Zoom group where we played a different game show home game every night. We played the Twenty One home game a few times...sending a player to the Waiting Room is the isolation booth, so it worked rather nicely as a Zoom game.

My recollection was that it played surprisingly well. The only drawback is that, played legitimately, ties happen FAR less often (I think just one in all the games we played over Zoom) so you don't get what this show was going for, the tension of seeing how long it will take for one player to emerge.

Interesting story about the Jim Lange pilot. I think we've established pretty thoroughly at this point that game show pilots are often rigged for the simple reason of presenting a good game in your sales pitch to a network. Michael Brockman, who was head of CBS at the time, was absolutely adamant that Barry & Enright deliver an unrigged pilot. His recollection was that he told them something to the effect of "Of all the shows you've done, this was the worst choice for a show to revive. The one thing I'm going to ask is that you give me legitimate games in the pilot, because right now, you have no track record or proof that this format works when it's played legitimately."

Barry & Enright delivered a rigged pilot anyway. Brockman was so annoyed by that, he passed and bought Child's Play instead.


chris319

  • Co-Executive Producer
  • Posts: 10646
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2023, 10:39:34 PM »
Quote
Of all the shows you've done, this was the worst choice for a show to revive.

Then along came Hot Potato.

Quote
right now, you have no track record or proof that this format works when it's played legitimately.

On the contrary, they had proof that the show didn't work when played straight. See the PBS documentary containing an early Twenty One where the contestants missed question after question, precipitating a call from Geritol's ad agency which led to the decision to rig the show.

P+, Mindreaders and Blockbusters were greenlit on the basis of office tun-thrus. Spellbinders and Puzzlers didn't make it past the pilot stage. All-New BTC didn't have a pilot or office run-thru, just an order from CBS.

None of these undertakings were rigged.

BrandonFG

  • Member
  • Posts: 18552
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2023, 10:49:34 PM »
Interesting story about the Jim Lange pilot. I think we've established pretty thoroughly at this point that game show pilots are often rigged for the simple reason of presenting a good game in your sales pitch to a network. Michael Brockman, who was head of CBS at the time, was absolutely adamant that Barry & Enright deliver an unrigged pilot. His recollection was that he told them something to the effect of "Of all the shows you've done, this was the worst choice for a show to revive. The one thing I'm going to ask is that you give me legitimate games in the pilot, because right now, you have no track record or proof that this format works when it's played legitimately."

Barry & Enright delivered a rigged pilot anyway. Brockman was so annoyed by that, he passed and bought Child's Play instead.
Didn’t realize 21 was for CBS. I always had it in my head it was for syndication, perhaps as a replacement for Bullseye.

Anyway, years ago I remember reading on ATGS that as Jack Barry tried to get back into producing, he came up with a pilot with a “staged” outcome. When pressed about playing it straight he argued it’s a pilot so it shouldn’t matter. Much as I enjoy TJW, his smugness as a host always annoyed me. That and making it seem like that 1982 Chevette on the line was worth a million bucks.
"They're both Norman Jewison movies, Troy, but we did think of one Jew more famous than Tevye."

Now celebrating his 22nd season on GSF!

chris319

  • Co-Executive Producer
  • Posts: 10646
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2023, 11:21:06 PM »
Quote
his smugness as a host always annoyed me.

I met Jack Barry at NATPE 1976 in San Francisco. I didn't see Enright around but he/they were trying to sell BTB into syndication. I asked him about the format of BTB. He explained that it had nine celebrities "a la Hollywood Squares". He was colder than ice and brusque beyond belief. It gave me the creeps.

Ira Skutch once said, "It could be worse. We could all be working for Jack Barry."

I have to call into question Brockman's story about catching Jack on a ladder backstage at TJW, trying to rig the show by fussing with the scoreboard. First, that's not how you rig a game show, and it would have resulted in a grievance from IATSE.

SuperMatch93

  • Member
  • Posts: 1723
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2023, 02:26:48 AM »
Spellbinders and Puzzlers didn't make it past the pilot stage.

I saw an interview not long ago with Bill Anderson, and he said that Spellbinders was all but sold to NBC, but technical problems with the computers that ran the board caused it to not enter production. Does that jive with what you remember?

Also, the '79 BTC had a pilot that's aired on BUZZR.
-William https://cookcounty.biz
https://www.donorschoose.org/classroom/cpsbermudez
"30 years from now, people won’t care what we’re doing right now." - Bob Barker on The Price is Right, 1983

Adam Nedeff

  • Member
  • Posts: 1800
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2023, 03:14:48 AM »
Quote
his smugness as a host always annoyed me.
I have to call into question Brockman's story about catching Jack on a ladder backstage at TJW, trying to rig the show by fussing with the scoreboard. First, that's not how you rig a game show, and it would have resulted in a grievance from IATSE.
Are you sure that’s a story from Brockman, though? He was in charge at ABC during the run of “Joker,” he never had anything to do with that show.

Adam Nedeff

  • Member
  • Posts: 1800
Re: Twenty One photo
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2023, 03:18:33 AM »

Also, the '79 BTC had a pilot that's aired on BUZZR.
It did, but Chris is right, it sold without a pilot. All New Beat the Clock shot three pilots on September 4 and 5, 1979, less than two weeks before the first episode aired. It’s likely that the pilots were just “Let’s make sure we’re happy with what we have” pilots rather than actually trying to sell the show.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 11:02:56 AM by Adam Nedeff »