Pyramid and forms of the word

[Jay Temple]

Okay, we've had all the discussions we're going to on how close your form of a word has to be on Osmond Pyramid in order to be accepted, compared to previous versions.  I saw one of these instances in the past few days, and I finally figured out why the change bothers me.  It's not because accepting "run" for "running" is intrinsically fair.  It's not because not accepting it is intrinsically unfair.

It's because watching one player spend three seconds trying to get his partner to give the same word plus a suffix ... IS BORING!  I'm not exaggerating much when I say that it's the most boring three seconds in all of TV history.

[BrandonFG]

[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 12:16 AM\'] Okay, we've had all the discussions we're going to on how close your form of a word has to be on Osmond Pyramid in order to be accepted, compared to previous versions.  I saw one of these instances in the past few days, and I finally figured out why the change bothers me.  It's not because accepting "run" for "running" is intrinsically fair.  It's not because not accepting it is intrinsically unfair.

It's because watching one player spend three seconds trying to get his partner to give the same word plus a suffix ... IS BORING!  I'm not exaggerating much when I say that it's the most boring three seconds in all of TV history. [/quote]
 While you find it boring, I find it annoying, and sometimes anal. I've seen the same thing happen during the Winner's Circle, where the suffix is the only thing keeping the contestant from winning $10/25K, and time runs out. It's even worse when the giver expects to be dinged, but sits there with a deer in the headlights "WTF" look, because his or her partner still hasn't said "-ING." It's extremely awkward.

[bttritle]

Kind of similar to the early days of Jeopardy (from what I've heard) where responses weren't excepted until the proper interrogative and verb tense were used ("What is" vs. "Who is").

Ben T.

[tidefan12]

As discussed ad nauseum, the consistency in judging on this version is what makes this particular nuance a little more frustrating.  I was given credit for "Scottish Things" in the WC with "Things in Scotland", but I've seen several people w/ similar categories and words that had to be more exact.  As stated, they usually ended up with a blank look.  

If it ever returns to the air and producers are going to stick to this particular quirk in the game, how about the ol' "Password" form of the word signal?  As fast as the front game moves now, I've seen this very thing we're discussing absolutely wreck the front game performance of several players b/c they've spent 10 + seconds trying to pick up something they should have been given credit for.  Just a thought.

Shane Elsberry

[Brandon Brooks]

[quote name=\'bttritle\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 01:28 AM\'] Kind of similar to the early days of Jeopardy (from what I've heard) where responses weren't excepted until the proper interrogative and verb tense were used ("What is" vs. "Who is").

Ben T. [/quote]
 They still won't accept them in Double Jeopardy!  Trebek will remind you in Jeopardy! to phrase the responses in the form of a question.  But if you insist on just giving an answer in DJ!, you're SOL.

Brandon Brooks

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Brandon Brooks\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 03:23 PM\'] [quote name=\'bttritle\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 01:28 AM\'] Kind of similar to the early days of Jeopardy (from what I've heard) where responses weren't excepted until the proper interrogative and verb tense were used ("What is" vs. "Who is").

Ben T. [/quote]
They still won't accept them in Double Jeopardy!  Trebek will remind you in Jeopardy! to phrase the responses in the form of a question.  But if you insist on just giving an answer in DJ!, you're SOL.

Brandon Brooks [/quote]
 Not his point. Ben's saying that back in the day, you used to get popped if you said "Who is Canada?" as opposed to 'What is Canada?" when referring to the country to our direct north.

[Robert Hutchinson]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 06:01 PM\']Ben's saying that back in the day, you used to get popped if you said "Who is Canada?" as opposed to 'What is Canada?" when referring to the country to our direct north.[/quote]
As opposed to today, when the current host will automatically declare you correct if you respond "What is Canada?"

[Brandon Brooks]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 06:01 PM\'] Not his point. Ben's saying that back in the day, you used to get popped if you said "Who is Canada?" as opposed to 'What is Canada?" when referring to the country to our direct north. [/quote]
 Ah, I see.

Brandon Brooks

[mbclev]

[quote name=\'Brandon Brooks\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 05:23 PM\'] [quote name=\'bttritle\' date=\'Mar 11 2004, 01:28 AM\'] Kind of similar to the early days of Jeopardy (from what I've heard) where responses weren't excepted until the proper interrogative and verb tense were used ("What is" vs. "Who is").

Ben T. [/quote]
They still won't accept them in Double Jeopardy!  Trebek will remind you in Jeopardy! to phrase the responses in the form of a question.  But if you insist on just giving an answer in DJ!, you're SOL.

Brandon Brooks [/quote]
 This can ultimately cost you the game as well.  The most famous example of this was during the 1995 Tournament of Champions, when David Siegel forgot to phrase a Daily Double response in the form of a question during game one of that year's finals, and it ultimately cost him, because he wagered $800 on that Daily Double, and he lost to Ryan Holznagel by $1301, less than the $1600 turnaround he would have had had he phrased that particular response (he forgot to put a "What is" in front of "Of Human Bondage").  More recent examples of this are from the first day the clue values were raised to their present levels (a player forgot to phrase properly a $1200 clue; not only did it cost him a chance to win the game, it also cost him the game) and the mistakes of Anthony Trufilio and Heather Mock.  (Trufilio forgot to put a "What is" in front of "99% perspiration" in Thomas Edison's famous saying about genius, and Heather goofed on the latest year the New York Yankees won the World Series before 2000.)  I wonder if they're still needled about their mistakes to this day, either in jest or maliciously, like Bill Buckner still gets needled about his 1986 World Series error (Siegel's mistake was rerun four times in 2000 on Game Show Network).

It almost happened again in the 2003 Tournament of Champions when Mark Dawson forgot to phrase a DJ response properly, and he would have suffered the same fate as David Siegel if Brian Weikle calculated his Final Jeopardy wager properly in game two.

[zachhoran]

[quote name=\'mbclev\' date=\'Mar 23 2004, 11:13 AM\']
They still won't accept them in Double Jeopardy!  Trebek will remind you in Jeopardy! to phrase the responses in the form of a question.  But if you insist on just giving an answer in DJ!, you're SOL.


This can ultimately cost you the game as well.  The most famous example of this was during the 1995 Tournament of Champions, when David Siegel forgot to phrase a Daily Double response in the form of a question during game one of that year's finals, and it ultimately cost him, because he wagered $800 on that Daily Double, and he lost to Ryan Holznagel by $1301, less than the $1600 turnaround he would have had had he phrased that particular response (he forgot to put a "What is" in front of "Of Human Bondage").  More recent examples of this are from the first day the clue values were raised to their present levels (a player forgot to phrase properly a $1200 clue; not only did it cost him a chance to win the game, it also cost him the game) and the mistakes of Anthony Trufilio and Heather Mock.  (Trufilio forgot to put a "What is" in front of "99% perspiration" in Thomas Edison's famous saying about genius, and Heather goofed on the latest year the New York Yankees won the World Series before 2000.)  I wonder if they're still needled about their mistakes to this day, either in jest or maliciously, like Bill Buckner still gets needled about his 1986 World Series error (Siegel's mistake was rerun four times in 2000 on Game Show Network).

It almost happened again in the 2003 Tournament of Champions when Mark Dawson forgot to phrase a DJ response properly, and he would have suffered the same fate as David Siegel if Brian Weikle calculated his Final Jeopardy wager properly in game two. [/quote]
 Not writing WHo Is? or WHat Is? in FJ! cost a few players the game in the early years of Trebek J!, which is why during that round, Who Is? or What Is? is not written on the monitors before the round begins.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Mar 23 2004, 09:20 AM\'] Not writing WHo Is? or WHat Is? in FJ! cost a few players the game in the early years of Trebek J!, which is why during that round, Who Is? or What Is? is not written on the monitors before the round begins. [/quote]
 Never mind the fact that they wouldn't know whether to write "who" or "what" until the answer was revealed and they knew whether it WAS a "who" or a "what".

Classic Horan.

[zachhoran]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Mar 23 2004, 11:51 AM\'] [quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Mar 23 2004, 09:20 AM\'] Not writing WHo Is? or WHat Is? in FJ! cost a few players the game in the early years of Trebek J!, which is why during that round, Who Is? or What Is? is now written on the monitors before the round begins. [/quote]
Never mind the fact that they wouldn't know whether to write "who" or "what" until the answer was revealed and they knew whether it WAS a "who" or a "what".

Classic Horan. [/quote]
 I believe it was reported that the staffers now tell them whether the question should start with WHat is or WHo Is or whatever before the answer is revealed.

Looks like I accidentally typed Not instead of Now. That is classic

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Mar 23 2004, 12:51 PM\'] Never mind the fact that they wouldn't know whether to write "who" or "what" until the answer was revealed and they knew whether it WAS a "who" or a "what".
 [/quote]
 Couple of things.

The players are told during the last commercial break what word to begin their FJ response with, and to go ahead and write it on their screens.  So the "what" or the "who" is already in place before the clue is revealed.  (It's really not that much of a hint, you know.)  They've been doing it that way for years.

As for Ben's comment about the early, EARLY days of Jeopardy!, the evidence we have about parsing the wording of the clues comes from a tape in the Museum of Television and Radio of a test episode of the show, one that never actually aired.  And yes, it was a very odd thing to watch Art Fleming slow the game down just to get people to offer up the "right" question.

The example I remember was a "Comic Strips" category.  The clue was "In the 25th Century" and the player rang in and said "Who is Buck Rogers?" That set off a painfully awkward exchange between host and player because the question itself didn't precisely fit the way the clue was worded.  What they wanted from the player was something like "When did Buck Rogers' adventures take place?"  Fleming wouldn't actually rule the player wrong when that happened, he just stayed with the player until he could coax out a more accurate question.

There's no specific evidence that they made such a big deal about the wording of the responses once the show actually went to air.