12/06 Schedule Changes

[SplitSecond]

[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'Oct 25 2004, 10:41 AM\']

The briefings on Pyramid were essentially sneak peeks at actual game material for the purpose of helping the celebrity communicate to the contestants - thereby likely affecting the outcome of the game.

The H2 celebs got sneak peeks at actual game material - "actual questions and answers" to use the disclaimer's wording - and this certainly helped in communicating to the contestants. Did this affect the outcome of the game? I don't know, and we'll never know because you can't rerun the game without the peek at the game material and see how it would have turned out. But it's hard to see how it could affect outcomes on Pyramid but not on H2.

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How many seasons did you work on the show?

[CaseyAbell]

I never worked on the show. The practice was disclaimed, though, so it was hardly a secret. Gameshowsteve, who seems to have pretty good knowledge of the show's production, says there was an interval of time before the WC when the celebs were given a look at the material. He doesn't think that there was any sneak peek for the front game, though, beyond the predetermined selection of the first four categories.

This thread goes into more detail from people who were involved on the show.

[SplitSecond]

[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'Oct 25 2004, 05:29 PM\']I never worked on the show. The practice was disclaimed, though, so it was hardly a secret. Gameshowsteve, who seems to have pretty good knowledge of the show's production, says there was an interval of time before the WC when the celebs were given a look at the material. He doesn't think that there was any sneak peek for the front game, though, beyond the predetermined selection of the first four categories.

This thread goes into more detail from people who were involved on the show.

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Pardon me for not being clear enough by referring to "the show" as Hollywood Squares, since, you know, that's what we were talking about.

Point is, I worked on Squares, and I have a dear friend who worked on Pyramid (and BRIEFED THE CELEBRITIES, no less).  I'm pretty darn well familiar with the celebrity briefing processes on both shows, and I know how the processes compare to each other.  I was not defending the (fairly indefensible) Pyramid briefing process; I was defending Squares, which you inaccurately called "heavily scripted and manipulated".

Your "people... involved on the show" you point to in that thread amount to... by my count, one contestant, no staff members.  And besides, what authority have you to be arguing this subject anyhow?

[CaseyAbell]

If you mean that only staff members on a particular show have "authority" to discuss the show's practices, I can't agree with you. I also don't understand why prepping the celebs is okay on H2 but "indefensible" on Donny Pyramid. I'm uncomfortable with the practice on either show. I can understand the entertainment rationale behind the prepping: more WC winners on Pyramid, better bluffs and zingers on H2. And as long as the practice is disclaimed and the contestants are aware of what's going on, legal problems are avoided.

But the prepping still goes against the spirit of spontaneous, bona fide competition that to me is the heart of game shows' appeal. We'll just have to leave the discussion there.

[dzinkin]

[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'Oct 26 2004, 08:15 AM\']If you mean that only staff members on a particular show have "authority" to discuss the show's practices, I can't agree with you.

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The degree of your arrogance is simply astounding -- not to mention your continued denial (in the face of mountains of evidence) that you're simply taking the contrarian position for its own sake.  Given the chance, you'd argue with Eddie Timanus about what it's like to play Jeopardy! blind.

Please do try to explain how being an arrogant contrarian isn't exactly what you're doing... as someone who's taught psychology in the past, I find you a fascinating study.

[Matt Ottinger]

The irony here is that this thread went south after Casey jumped on a post of mine that not only was NOT critical of GSN but basically toed the GSN line.  I said, "GSN as a haven made up exclusively of old reruns and traditional, Q&A originals really is no more."  I think if you ask the people at GSN, they'd say yes, they specifically have been pursuing more recent reruns and less traditional originals.  Words to that effect have probably turned up in press releases.    

It was a harmless statement -- one line in a longer, balanced post -- that Casey nevertheless felt the need to refute with a list of shows, none of which were original and only a few of which were old.  If that's not contrarian, I don't know what is.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'Oct 26 2004, 05:15 AM\']But the prepping still goes against the spirit of spontaneous, bona fide competition that to me is the heart of game shows' appeal. We'll just have to leave the discussion there.

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More classic Casey. "My argument is eroding by the microsecond, so let's quit before I'm completely in over my head." Sorry, not gonna get away with it this time.

The prepping on H2 does NOTHING to affect gameplay. The player still has to agree or disagree with the provided response, which means they still need to know the answer to the question themselves, or at the least, recognize a wrong one. It doesn't matter if the Square makes up the lie or not.

I ask you this: If the celebrities on Battlestars had the option of selecting (and trying to sell) the wrong answer from the two shown to them, would that be questionable? If not, tell me where that differentiates from what happens on H2.

[CaseyAbell]

Why all the shouting? What is so "arrogant" and "contrarian" about wanting as spontaneous and unrehearsed competition as possible on game shows? If this is an arrogant and contrarian position, then yeah, I'll gladly plead guilty.

Of course, the prepping of the celebs affected the gameplay on H2, as the MG/H2 clips on the Big Board demonstrated. Without the prepping the celebs were often reduced to confessing ignorance and admittedly guessing an answer, which clearly affected the contestant's judgment of whether the answer was right or wrong.

Now as I said, I can understand the entertainment rationale for the prepping, as the H2 segment of the MG/H2 hour also demonstrated. The game limped along without the scripted bluffs and zingers. But like Mr. Goodson - to his chagrin in this case - I'm not comfortable with the prepping on H2.

This position of mine isn't eroding at all. I'll continue to maintain that competition on game shows should be as bona fide as possible. If this gets some adjectives thrown my way, I'll just have to tolerate them.

[dzinkin]

[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'Oct 26 2004, 01:59 PM\']Why all the shouting? What is so "arrogant" and "contrarian" about wanting as spontaneous and unrehearsed competition as possible on game shows? If this is an arrogant and contrarian position, then yeah, I'll gladly plead guilty.

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There's no shouting at all.  What's arrogant is you claiming to have more knowledge of what goes on with H2 than someone who worked on it has.  What's contrarian is the fact that if SplitSecond were to argue that the prepping on H2 and Pyramid were equivalent to one another, you'd be arguing that they weren't... just to argue.  Deny it all you like, but your own posting record belies any denial on your part.

Of course, the prepping of the celebs affected the gameplay on H2, as the MG/H2 clips on the Big Board demonstrated. Without the prepping the celebs were often reduced to confessing ignorance and admittedly guessing an answer, which clearly affected the contestant's judgment of whether the answer was right or wrong.

Considering that all of the questions on MG/HS were multiple choice, even if a celebrity had bluffed and given an incorrect answer, it could still sound legitimate to the contestant -- just as the bluffs supplied on H2 could.  Thus, there was no real difference at all in game play... just in the entertainment value.

Now as I said, I can understand the entertainment rationale for the prepping, as the H2 segment of the MG/H2 hour also demonstrated. The game limped along without the scripted bluffs and zingers. But like Mr. Goodson - to his chagrin in this case - I'm not comfortable with the prepping on H2.

You don't have to be comfortable with the prepping on H2.  But to claim that it's equivalent to the prepping on Pyramid is wrong, and you know it.

This position of mine isn't eroding at all.

The fact that you care more about arguing for the sake of arguing than about having an actual discussion means that your position isn't going to erode in the face of evidence that demolishes said position.

I'll continue to maintain that competition on game shows should be as bona fide as possible.

More evasion... that's a position against which no one has argued, and you know it.  That is not the same thing as claiming that the prepping on H2 is roughly the same as the prepping on Pyramid -- as you also know.

If this gets some adjectives thrown my way, I'll just have to tolerate them.

It's simply going to continue to destroy your credibility.  I have no problem with that if you don't.

[SplitSecond]

I'm reminded of what someone once told me in regards to how winning an argument on the internet is a lot like winning in the Special Olympics.

Look it up.

[bricon]

[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'Oct 25 2004, 12:41 PM\']The H2 celebs got sneak peeks at actual game material - "actual questions and answers" to use the disclaimer's wording - and this certainly helped in communicating to the contestants.[/quote]

While I cannot speak for how any of the previous versions of the show handled their briefings, the celebrities on H2 were given only the questions, the bluff and a joke.  There were certain panelists in seasons 1-4 who, due to their additional titles/duties on the show - namely our head writer and an executive producer, had access to more than that criteria.  In season 5-6, they were no longer given the question, but rather the rough subject of the material: "question about famous siblings", for example.