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Author Topic: 1960's WML  (Read 9021 times)

GSFan

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1960's WML
« on: January 17, 2004, 07:29:32 PM »
Was there an on-air mention of Miss Kilgallen's death? If yes, does anyone know what was said?

David
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JCGames

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1960's WML
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2004, 10:49:50 PM »
I think, if I recall reading Gil Fates' book, that Mr Daly said a few heartfelt words at the start, and then they went on with the show. Kitty Carlisle took Dorothy's place that night.

CBSJokersWildFan

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1960's WML
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2004, 06:01:05 AM »
On a related topic, what kind of on-air mention was made of WML panelist Fred Allen's death in 1956?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 06:50:58 AM by CBSJokersWildFan »

Ghastly_Gary

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1960's WML
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2004, 07:09:28 AM »
IIRC, John mentioned Fred Allen's death at the beginning, then they went on with the game.  At the conclusion, each panelist paid tribuite to Fred.  The most touching was from Steve Allen (filling Fred's seat which Steve used to fill every week) saying that many people thought that Fred was his father, but Steve is mourning Fred as if he was his father.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 07:10:01 AM by Ghastly_Gary »

Matt Ottinger

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1960's WML
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2004, 09:42:43 AM »
As we've mentioned before, the tributes to Kilgallen and to Fred Allen were similar with a couple of notable differences.  The panel was still in shock over Fred Allen's death because it happened just the day before the Sunday show.  Kilgallen died just AFTER the previous week's program, so the panel had a full week to compose themselves and their thoughts.  Also, frankly, Fred Allen was better liked by his fellow panel members.
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Jim

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1960's WML
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2004, 04:58:01 PM »
Building on Matt's comments, I think Dorothy's death was something like the Geico car insurance commercial:
Bennett Cerf:  Arlene, I have some terrible news!
Arlene Francis: No need to mention it, Bennett.  I already know.  I'm sickened over it too.  They passed another ordinance letting one of those McDonald's burger joints in Mt. Kisco.
Bennett Cerf: How horrible.  Things will never be the same.  Oh yeah, what about Dorothy?  
Arlene Francis: Loudon said she will be back on stage Monday. Just a touch of the flu.
Bennett Cerf: Good.  Who's sitting in Dot's chair tonight?
Arlene Francis: Kitty!
Bennett Cerf: Cool.  Let's all go to Toots Shorr's after.
Arlene Francis: Sounds like a plan.

BrandonFG

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1960's WML
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2004, 05:12:59 PM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 18 2004, 09:42 AM\'] As we've mentioned before, the tributes to Kilgallen and to Fred Allen were similar with a couple of notable differences.  The panel was still in shock over Fred Allen's death because it happened just the day before the Sunday show.  Kilgallen died just AFTER the previous week's program, so the panel had a full week to compose themselves and their thoughts.  Also, frankly, Fred Allen was better liked by his fellow panel members. [/quote]
 Having never seen the B&W What's My Line, I'm taking a guess to ask if Dorothy was a prima donna of sorts, or just incredibly difficult?
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Jim

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1960's WML
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2004, 05:34:23 PM »
Obviously, I don't know any of them, but I can offer my opinion of why she comes off differently from the others.  To summarize, Dorothy had to work for most of the praise and happy things she got.  (I have noticed that, when someone says something complimentary to her, she seems genuinely moved and pleased and smiles brightly.  The others nod politely to compliments at the most.)  They were the exception and not the rule.  Dorothy wrote a gossip column a la Cindy Adams "Page Six".  She reported gossip for a newspaper and covered entertainment from a different angle - get the goods on people.  Those who provided good leads were treated like royalty in her columns.  She could also ruin a career with bad press and telling what she knew.  It was a difficult job socially; and it has been said the others on the show didn't always understand why she had to divulge things they considered private and not suitable for print.  That's fine - unless it's your job to be a columnist and get the dirt.  Who knows what her work environment was like.  There is a lot of office politics in newspapers (more than, say the Engineering Dept at Dow Corning).  She was staff - albeit glorified staff - but a hundred people were waiting to take her job if she made the wrong enemies with management.  As you can see, she is a scrapper due to the job she was in.  She lacked the financial independence the other panelists had.  Maybe this made her slightly uncomfortable.
    Next, she was in an unhappy marriage based on what has been written here and in print.
   Office politics are alive and well in corporations and in movies/broadway too.  But, Bennett was in charge of his company.  Arlene and Martin apeared financially well off and never lacking for new work.  It has been written Bennett and Arlene were from a different economic strata than Dorothy.  They were also in a chummier clique (e.g., publisher has management and support - all work together to get new clients / Francis and Gabel have a circle of friends in New York theatre)  Bennett and Arlene were neighbors.  More togetherness due to where they live and they show up at the same affairs, albeit for different reasons.  These people all networked together.  Dorothy was not part of their network.
    Move on to the internal psyche.  Dorothy has been described as feeling inferior for her plain looks.  She had different religious views than the others (she was a strict Catholic).  More evidence these folks aren't coming from the same playbook.  This could cause some friction and on the basis of disapproval and anger or jealousy over what they took for granted.
    I think Arlene, Martin, and Bennett were more comfortable financially and socially.  IMHO, Dorothy was a tinge jealous and wishful people would see her as the beautiful and sophisticated sort.  Instead, she was seen as a Hedda Hopper type - powerful and out to get the juicy story.  Facing such perceptions all the time, and seeing others who you wish you could more emulate, you turn a bit cold when dealing with others.  You could be less forgiving and more shrill.  She also appears to have a streak of the perfectionist in her.  As when, on one show, her daughter said mommy told them to curtsey before leaving the stage.  
    That's my pop psychology for the day...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 05:36:47 PM by Jim »

shecky

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1960's WML
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2004, 10:03:21 PM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 18 2004, 09:42 AM\']As we've mentioned before, the tributes to Kilgallen and to Fred Allen were similar with a couple of notable differences.  The panel was still in shock over Fred Allen's death because it happened just the day before the Sunday show.  Kilgallen died just AFTER the previous week's program, so the panel had a full week to compose themselves and their thoughts.  Also, frankly, Fred Allen was better liked by his fellow panel members.[/quote]
something that I have never been able to figure out.  Was the epsiode of WML that aired the night of Dorothy's death, a live episode or one taped earlier.

watching that show, there is no mention of it being live but many of them had the live from New York portion edited out of the existing shows.

anyone know for sure.

TwoInchQuad

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1960's WML
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2004, 02:31:34 AM »
The 11/7/65 show was indeed a live broadcast.

-Kevin

JCGames

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1960's WML
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2005, 08:20:53 PM »
I also recall, from reading Lee Israel's biography of Miss Killgallen, that Dorothy had taped a week of daytime To Tell the Truth episodes a couple of weeks earlier as a guest panelist. The week's first episode had been broadcast the day of her passing, before CBS was aware of her death. TTTT was a 25-minute show at 3pm EST followed by CBS News with Douglas Edwards at 3:25; when the 11/8/65 taped show featuring Dorothy ended, Mr Edwards reported that "Columnist Dorothy Killgallen, who was just seen on the preceding recorded broadcast, died early today at her New York apartment".
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 08:07:33 PM by JCGames »

DrBear

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1960's WML
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2005, 09:53:31 PM »
By coincidence, I just happened to be re-reading Gil Fates' book about the show.  Fates (for the new kids, he produced the show) said that Kilgallen was the most competitive and that the network show started its fade after her death. He remembered getting letters saying things like "I didn't like her, but I miss her" from viewers.

Also, re: the final show, it was as described. Kitty Carlisle sat in Dorothy's chair, and of course, the seat stayed open for guests through the rest of the CBS run.

I don't think Bennett and Arlene disliked her - Bennett went over to see what was wrong in the famous incident where Dorothy cried because she hadn't guessed an occupation "in three whole weeks." And he signed her to a deal to write a book about famous trials she had covered; her father Jim ended up finishing the book after her death.

There was an incident with John Daly. Daly learned that Mike Wallace was to be a Mystery Guest, shortly after Daly had publicly rebuked Wallace after he had grilled mobster Mickey Cohen and got comments back that ABC had to apologize for (Daly was still running ABC News at the time). Daly threatened to skip the show, and Wallace withdrew. Dorothy got wind of it and published the whole thing in her column the next day, and Daly gave her the silent treatment (except on-air) for about six months.
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tvrandywest

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1960's WML
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2005, 12:28:39 AM »
Most of the conjecture and reports posted above are accurate, based on conversations I've had with those who were at the show in that era. Former producer of the show, Bob Bach, being my primary source.

I certainly don't want to turn this into a thread about conspiracy theories - the matter of Ms. Kilgallen's death is covered on other websites. But I'd feel I was remiss if I did not point out that there are a great number of mysterious circumstances and physical evidence surrounding Ms. Kilgallen's death. There is also a fair amount of reasonably founded conjecture that her death was involved with the strange goings-on following JFK's assassination.

Bob Bach's wife was good friends with Dorothy, and both Mr. and Mrs. Bach were among the many who recall Dorothy sharing her excitement about "blowing the lid off of the Kennedy assassination". She had recently returned from an exclusive jailhouse interview with Jack Ruby, and was preparing the story.

I'm not encouraging a debate on the matter, but simply want to point out to those who are apparently curious about Ms. Kilgallen's passing that it is a controversial subject that can be researched elsewhere.


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chris319

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1960's WML
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2005, 08:14:35 PM »
Quote
frankly, Fred Allen was better liked by his fellow panel members.
I'm curious, what is the basis for your comparison and the inference that D.K.'s alleged unpopularity influenced the way she was eulogized? Did I miss something in Gil's book?

Matt Ottinger

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1960's WML
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2005, 11:21:37 AM »
[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Nov 5 2005, 09:14 PM\']
Quote
frankly, Fred Allen was better liked by his fellow panel members.
I'm curious, what is the basis for your comparison and the inference that D.K.'s alleged unpopularity influenced the way she was eulogized? Did I miss something in Gil's book?[/quote]
Gil's book isn't the only book.  Arlene wrote a book, Bennett wrote a book, and Lee Israel wrote a book about Dorothy.  Consistantly, the evidence is that the Cerfs and the Francis-Gabels were extremely close and Dorothy was the outsider.  "Dorothy and I were philosophically in different camps" was a typically sugar-coated line in Arlene's  book.  I also never said that Dorothy was unpopular with her fellow panelists, just that Fred Allen was better liked.

That doesn't mean they danced a jig on her grave, and you'll recall my main point was that they had a full week to deal with Dorothy's death as opposed to Fred Allen's death a day before the live show.  Still, there's a difference between eulogizing a person you adored and eulogizing a person you worked with.  I believe that, with no maliciousness intended at all, Fred got the former treatment and Dorothy got the latter.
This has been another installment of Matt Ottinger's Masters of the Obvious.
Stay tuned for all the obsessive-compulsive fun of Words Have Meanings.