The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Ian Wallis on September 30, 2003, 09:08:51 AM
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I was thinking the other day that GSN probably has just about the biggest library of programs to air of all the cable networks, at 50,000. I can't think of any other network that would have access to that much stuff.
The only one that might come close is probably ESPN Classic, which theoretically could have access to *any* sporting event ever (those of which that still exist, anyway).
I remember seeing a commercial for TVLand several years ago which claimed \"our library is packed with 25,000 episodes...\" I never saw a complete list of what they had, but I find that number a little hard to believe considering most hit drama and comedy series might do between 100 and 200 at most. They would have to have a LOT of stuff to get up to 25,000!
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The only one that might come close is probably ESPN Classic, which theoretically could have access to *any* sporting event ever (those of which that still exist, anyway).
But that's like saying TV Land theoretically could have access to *any* old TV show or, more to the point, that GSN theoretically could have acces to *any* old game show. ESPN Classic has to acquire rights and pay fees just like any other operation. I doubt they have anywhere close to 50,000 events in their library.
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According to ESPN (http://\"http://espn.go.com/espninc/pressreleases/funfacts.html\"), ESPN Classic has around 30,000 videotapes in their library. With the sheer number of college football and basketball games that ABC and ESPN have covered over the years alone, that certainly seems plausible.
Sure they have to negotiate rights with outside sources, but they seem to have a pretty good head start on just the ABC/ESPN libraries to begin with. One notable exclusion is any NFL games. The NFL is notorious about NFL Films being the prism through which its history is viewed.
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[quote name=\'inturnaround\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 08:18 AM\'] One notable exclusion is any NFL games. The NFL is notorious about NFL Films being the prism through which its history is viewed. [/quote]
BUT...those NFL Films productions air on...ESPN.
So the chances of seeing pertinent regular season games is poor, but at least you'd be able to see those season summary programs, as well as the NFL Films Super Bowl shows.
And I've caught them running non-playoff baseball games that originally aired on NBC. So their deal with MLB must involve some archive access.
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[quote name=\'inturnaround\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 11:18 AM\'] According to ESPN (http://\"http://espn.go.com/espninc/pressreleases/funfacts.html\"), ESPN Classic has around 30,000 videotapes in their library. With the sheer number of college football and basketball games that ABC and ESPN have covered over the years alone, that certainly seems plausible.
Sure they have to negotiate rights with outside sources, but they seem to have a pretty good head start on just the ABC/ESPN libraries to begin with. One notable exclusion is any NFL games. The NFL is notorious about NFL Films being the prism through which its history is viewed. [/quote]
Fair enough. We can argue the semantics of whether 30,000 is \"anywhere close\" to 50,000, but that's certainly a lot bigger library than I would have thought.
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You can count every \"SportsCenter\" done over the years as a single program - with at least one (and usually three) per day since 1979, that can add up to 20K+*. Throw in ESPN2's \"Sportsnight\" (not \"Sports Night\") and ESPN's \"Up Close\", \"Sports reporters\" et al, and that's quite a hunk of video (albeit not a lot of it is probably up for repurposing.)
*Assuming they were all saved from the early days. I'd love to see the premiere w/George Grande in its entirety sometime.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 10:49 AM\'] [quote name=\'inturnaround\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 08:18 AM\'] One notable exclusion is any NFL games. The NFL is notorious about NFL Films being the prism through which its history is viewed. [/quote]
BUT...those NFL Films productions air on...ESPN.
So the chances of seeing pertinent regular season games is poor, but at least you'd be able to see those season summary programs, as well as the NFL Films Super Bowl shows.
And I've caught them running non-playoff baseball games that originally aired on NBC. So their deal with MLB must involve some archive access. [/quote]
But what you don't see is the original telecast. You don't get to see/hear Pat Summerall and John Madden in their prime waxing philosophically about the Giants and Bears. While NFL Films will occasionally augment their footage with radio calls to add a more local flavor, you don't get to see the game the way it was originally shown.
I could add more, but then again I live in an area without an NFL team. (Five bucks cyber$$ to the first one to point out, \"Wait a minute. You live in Chicago.\")
Doug
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 08:08 AM\']I remember seeing a commercial for TVLand several years ago which claimed \"our library is packed with 25,000 episodes...\" I never saw a complete list of what they had, but I find that number a little hard to believe considering most hit drama and comedy series might do between 100 and 200 at most. They would have to have a LOT of stuff to get up to 25,000![/quote]
On the other hand, considering that Viacom's holdings currently include the back libraries of the Big 3 networks' original syndication divisions, *plus* the holdings of Paramount, Desilu, NTA/Republic, MTV Networks, TNN, CBS News, Group W/King World, Spelling and distribution rights to TPE/Rysher programs owned by Mark Cuban (pant, pant)--and feature films and the Terrytoons library on top of that--that number could be very close, even if you take out the shows that are licensed to other channels and the titles of genres that TV Land would probably not program.
ObGameShow: Oh yeah, there have to be *some* game shows in there.
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[quote name=\'ChrisLambert!\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 10:20 AM\'] *Assuming they were all saved from the early days. I'd love to see the premiere w/George Grande in its entirety sometime. [/quote]
Oh, they have it. They used footage from it on an HBO 2-part series called \"Play By Play: A History Of Sports Broadcasting\" that I would dearly love to get my hands on so I could watch it again. ESPN also used it on their own retrospective of the show when they celebrated their 20th birthday a couple years ago.
I was pleased to see that George Grande is still working, as the regional voice of the Cincy Reds.
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[quote name=\'uncamark\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 02:44 PM\'] [quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 08:08 AM\']I remember seeing a commercial for TVLand several years ago which claimed "our library is packed with 25,000 episodes..." I never saw a complete list of what they had, but I find that number a little hard to believe considering most hit drama and comedy series might do between 100 and 200 at most. They would have to have a LOT of stuff to get up to 25,000![/quote]
On the other hand, considering that Viacom's holdings currently include the back libraries of the Big 3 networks' original syndication divisions, *plus* the holdings of Paramount, Desilu, NTA/Republic, MTV Networks, TNN, CBS News, Group W/King World, Spelling and distribution rights to TPE/Rysher programs owned by Mark Cuban (pant, pant)--and feature films and the Terrytoons library on top of that--that number could be very close, even if you take out the shows that are licensed to other channels and the titles of genres that TV Land would probably not program.
ObGameShow: Oh yeah, there have to be *some* game shows in there. [/quote]
I know one for certain that the Big V has.....Uncle Bill's $25K Pyramid.
Viacom, per what I'm told, has the rights to pretty much every last sitcom and drama (Dosen't count Soaps) ever made that isn't entirely held by another net (And some of THOSE are leased from Viacom), plus, at least a few game shows, and most likely some soaps too....
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[quote name=\'Seth Thrasher\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 05:44 PM\'] [quote name=\'uncamark\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 02:44 PM\'] [quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 08:08 AM\']I remember seeing a commercial for TVLand several years ago which claimed "our library is packed with 25,000 episodes..." I never saw a complete list of what they had, but I find that number a little hard to believe considering most hit drama and comedy series might do between 100 and 200 at most. They would have to have a LOT of stuff to get up to 25,000![/quote]
On the other hand, considering that Viacom's holdings currently include the back libraries of the Big 3 networks' original syndication divisions, *plus* the holdings of Paramount, Desilu, NTA/Republic, MTV Networks, TNN, CBS News, Group W/King World, Spelling and distribution rights to TPE/Rysher programs owned by Mark Cuban (pant, pant)--and feature films and the Terrytoons library on top of that--that number could be very close, even if you take out the shows that are licensed to other channels and the titles of genres that TV Land would probably not program.
ObGameShow: Oh yeah, there have to be *some* game shows in there. [/quote]
I know one for certain that the Big V has.....Uncle Bill's $25K Pyramid.
Viacom, per what I'm told, has the rights to pretty much every last sitcom and drama (Dosen't count Soaps) ever made that isn't entirely held by another net (And some of THOSE are leased from Viacom), plus, at least a few game shows, and most likely some soaps too.... [/quote]
Don't they have The Love Experts, $50k Pyramid, and Make Me Laugh '79 also?
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[quote name=\'PeterMarshallFan\' date=\'Sep 30 2003, 04:48 PM\']
ObGameShow: Oh yeah, there have to be *some* game shows in there. [/QUOTE]
I know one for certain that the Big V has.....Uncle Bill's $25K Pyramid.
Don't they have The Love Experts, $50k Pyramid, and Make Me Laugh '79 also? [/quote]
I don't think they would have $50K Pyramid, as it was syndied by Colgate Palmolive. MML79 was syndied by Paramount, as was Anything For Money, WIpeout, and TPIR94.
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Y'all touched on Game Show Network before. Well, they're a part of Sony, which has the second biggest game show library (next to Fremantle of course), with the Barry-Enright, Chuck Barris, and Bob Stewart archives.
But as far as cable's biggest library is concerned...it's a tie between Disney with their libraries (the Disney Channel used to run a Vault Disney block on late nights) as well as ESPN's (Chris Berman said on the live behind-the-scenes of Sportscenter special they have over 1 million tapes and counting in their vaults), and Viacom with VH1, MTV, Nick, Spike TV/TNN, CMT, BET (I think they own BET) and many other properties including Paramount's.
Speaking of Paramount, Wipeout, Make Me Laugh '79, '94 nighttime TPIR, and Anything for Money are STILL collecting dust next to all those old \"Arsenio Hall\" shows (I think Entertainment Tonight's are far, far back)! Maybe they don't want to be seen again--unless GSN can work things out with Paramount.
Jonathan Allen
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Viacom's holdings currently include the back libraries of the Big 3 networks' original syndication divisions, *plus* the holdings of Paramount, Desilu, NTA/Republic, MTV Networks, TNN, CBS News, Group W/King World, Spelling and distribution rights to TPE/Rysher programs owned by Mark Cuban (pant, pant)--and feature films and the Terrytoons library on top of that
Yeah but they ain't got FOX! Sumner and Rupe would have to duke it out for that. First one to knock out the other's choppers wins.
ObGameShows: Gene Wood would get a check if an episode of Lariat Sam ever saw the light of day again.
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Well, there's a push on one of the animation boards I frequent to get the Paramount cartoons and the Terrytoons (both held by Viacom) back on TV again, and since Lariat Sam was definitely a Terrytoon, that qualifies.
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[quote name=\'johnnya2k3\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 02:11 AM\'] (I think Entertainment Tonight's are far, far back)! [/quote]
How often do the ET archives get used anyway? 300 or so eps / year and once in a while an interview clip is dragged out. This has to be frustrating for Paramount to keep these.
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[quote name=\'tommycharles\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 01:11 PM\'][quote name=\'johnnya2k3\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 02:11 AM\'] (I think Entertainment Tonight's are far, far back)! [/quote]
How often do the ET archives get used anyway? 300 or so eps / year and once in a while an interview clip is dragged out. This has to be frustrating for Paramount to keep these.[/quote]
It's 312 shows a year, since they don't repeat and they produce six times a week (I believe they even fed a show on Sept. 11, 2001).
For the archives, they have \"ET in TV Land\" and the nostalgia pieces they do on the weekend show.
And compared to the news archives of the Big 3 networks, \"ET\"'s archives aren't that much room.
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It's 312 shows a year, since they don't repeat and they produce six times a week (I believe they even fed a show on Sept. 11, 2001).
Though I think they pre-record a few \"backup\" episodes, just in case. When the LA riots occurred in 1992, there was no \"live\" ET show, but they transmitted a backup episode that was copyrighted a year before, in 1991. Also, the backup show that day did not mention a date, which was always mentioned on the \"live\" shows.
For the archives, they have \"ET in TV Land\" and the nostalgia pieces they do on the weekend show.
I think MTV and VH1 also have ET shows as well.
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[quote name=\'rugrats1\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 02:37 PM\'] Though I think they pre-record a few "backup" episodes, just in case. When the LA riots occurred in 1992, there was no "live" ET show, but they transmitted a backup episode that was copyrighted a year before, in 1991. Also, the backup show that day did not mention a date, which was always mentioned on the "live" shows. [/quote]
Yes, I can confirm that \"ET\" does a couple of \"evergreen\" shows each season. Paramount also sends them out on videotape to the client stations, for use on an individual basis, just in case a local station is having horrendous problems with its satellite receiving equipment, or something like that.
Re old broadcasts of NFL games: Given that neither NBC nor CBS managed to save a tape of their individual broadcasts of the first Super Bowl, and given what we know about how the networks felt about saving videotapes of game shows, I kind of wonder how many regular-season NFL games are in the networks' archives. Seems like whenever CBS or Fox show old game footage, even from just a couple of years ago, it's from NFL Films, not from their broadcasts.
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Two other shows that also do \"backup\" eps. are The 700 Club and Access Hollywood (dunno about Extra or Inside Edition). TBN only airs alternate 700 Club episodes during CBN's special telethon weeks.
Jonathan Allen
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[quote name=\'uncamark\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 01:18 PM\']
For the archives, they have "ET in TV Land" and the nostalgia pieces they do on the weekend show.
And compared to the news archives of the Big 3 networks, "ET"'s archives aren't that much room. [/quote]
Those nostalgia pieces are more feasible to show as reruns than the Entertainment This Week shows ET used to do on the weekends for its first decade or so on the air.
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[quote name=\'trainman\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 05:41 PM\'] [quote name=\'rugrats1\' date=\'Oct 1 2003, 02:37 PM\'] I kind of wonder how many regular-season NFL games are in the networks' archives. Seems like whenever CBS or Fox show old game footage, even from just a couple of years ago, it's from NFL Films, not from their broadcasts. [/quote]
Thta's not out of negligence, but rather an NFL demand. They insist that games only be shown in Film version, as soon as a couple of weeks after they're played.
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In reading some of the responses, I started thinking about something else: it seems that the networks were more careful about saving old soap opera episodes than they were about old game shows.
I know that a lot of old soaps no longer exist, but I've also heard that ABC apparantly has \"All My Children\" episodes from as far back as 1970.
That kind of surprises me...
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Oct 2 2003, 07:56 AM\'] I know that a lot of old soaps no longer exist, but I've also heard that ABC apparantly has \"All My Children\" episodes from as far back as 1970.
That kind of surprises me... [/quote]
Inbetween the time that \"The City\" went off and \"Port Charles\" premiered in 1997, ABC programmed the 12:30pm slot with some classic episodes of their soaps (with some episodes broken up over 2 days to compensate for the half hour time slot)..
The first one they ran was AMC, but if I remember right, all they had available was a B&W kinescope when they ran the 1970 episodes..
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I think the fact that ABC produced and owned most of their soaps is a big factor in their survival, yet you don't see the '70's episodes on SoapNet (save the occasional \"Ryan's Hope,\") so it's as if they don't exist. I would guess Procter and Gamble have all of their shows tucked away somewhere. P&G's \"Another World\" is supposed to be rerun soon, but only the last few years of the run. Tying this to game shows, because the nets do not own them (the old ones anyway) there is no incentive to keep property that they can't exploit. If a friend gave you some tapes to store at your house and didn't care what you did with them, what would you do?
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Oct 2 2003, 09:30 AM\'] . Tying this to game shows, because the nets do not own them (the old ones anyway) there is no incentive to keep property that they can't exploit [/quote]
Of course, NBC does own the format rights to Twenty One, Tic Tac Dough, Dough Re Mi(I think), and of course, CONCENTRATION!. Whether NBC saved the old tapes of these shows is another story entirely. Do CBS and ABC own any game show format rights? I don't think they do, but maybe someone knows of one or two lesser-known formats they might own.
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I'm sure I read CBS bought What's My Line from G-T back in 1958. The 1969 home game by Whitman claims a CBS copyright. G-T may have also sold all or part of I've Got A Secret.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Oct 2 2003, 09:30 AM\']I think the fact that ABC produced and owned most of their soaps is a big factor in their survival, yet you don't see the '70's episodes on SoapNet (save the occasional \"Ryan's Hope,\") so it's as if they don't exist. I would guess Procter and Gamble have all of their shows tucked away somewhere. P&G's \"Another World\" is supposed to be rerun soon, but only the last few years of the run. [/quote]
I had heard that Sony had licensed the P&G library for its proposed Soap City channel, but when they decided not to go ahead with it the rights reverted to P&G.
From all indications, P&G does have at least some kinescopes of earlier eps of their soaps--but it's hard to say if a contemporary audience would be willing to watch them, with the much slower pacing and the organ music on top of the fact that they're in black-and-white (not to mention any color episodes before P&G dumped the organ music on all of their shows in the mid-70s--they were the last daytime soap producers to hold on to live music cues).