The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Jeremy Nelson on July 13, 2010, 08:30:24 PM
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When a contestant on Scrabble took tiles and dropped them into the slot on their podium, how did that work? Was the slot a drop to a "refuse pile" (like Lingo Balls)? Did the operator of the letter screens on the contestants' podium have a run sheet that said which numbered tile corresponded to each letter? I'm assuming this is the case, and I figure the tiles were just there for "show", another plot device to connect the name of the show to Scrabble.
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[quote name=\'Jeremy Nelson\' post=\'244067\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 08:30 PM\']Did the operator of the letter screens on the contestants' podium have a run sheet that said which numbered tile corresponded to each letter? I'm assuming this is the case, and I figure the tiles were just there for "show", another plot device to connect the name of the show to Scrabble.[/quote]
Sounds about right. Could also explain why the contestants also called out the number of the tile.
Still, as a kid, it's pretty cool to think that the slot had some sort of magical scanner that "read" the number. ;-)
My question though, how did the row of letters on the Sprint board work? The one that went from the black/white diamonds, to the blue/white stars, then the letters. Was that rear-projection? Tiny monitors? Solaris? They moved so fast I couldn't really tell.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'244068\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 05:36 PM\']Sounds about right. Could also explain why the contestants also called out the number of the tile.
Still, as a kid, it's pretty cool to think that the slot had some sort of magical scanner that "read" the number. ;-)[/quote]Y'know, I love the thought of that myself, but here's something. What's to say you can't just have a rudimentary bar code or magnetic reader on the tiles? Because what do you do if someone goes all Mumblican on you, and you don't hear what number is called? The tile's gone so you can't have him reach for it again and do that sequence over.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'244068\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 08:36 PM\']My question though, how did the row of letters on the Sprint board work? The one that went from the black/white diamonds, to the blue/white stars, then the letters. Was that rear-projection? Tiny monitors? Solaris? They moved so fast I couldn't really tell.[/quote]
From watching the series, and then watching the pilot on Youtube. The pilot appears to have used slide projectors where the word was displayed and then went to vertically mounted monitors and a chyron system when they went to series.
I am sure one of the experts will call me incorrect if I am wrong on my estimation.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'244068\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 07:36 PM\']Still, as a kid, it's pretty cool to think that the slot had some sort of magical scanner that "read" the number. ;-)
My question though, how did the row of letters on the Sprint board work? The one that went from the black/white diamonds, to the blue/white stars, then the letters. Was that rear-projection? Tiny monitors? Solaris? They moved so fast I couldn't really tell.[/quote]
I used to think the same thing about the letter slot!
I always thought that the Sprint Board worked kinda like the Tic Tac Dough board did...a bunch of monitors working in tandem from a single computer program...but I could be wrong.
[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'244069\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 08:08 PM\']...what do you do if someone goes all Mumblican on you, and you don't hear what number is called? The tile's gone so you can't have him reach for it again and do that sequence over.[/quote]
That's why I figured the tiles are in numeric order....if you can't hear the contestant's numbers, you know how many tiles are left, and where (s)he grabbed that one. A cross off sheet makes that fairly easy to combat, I think...not to mention that you can usually see part of the number as it drops down the slot.
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I would guess one big monitor with part of the screen masked off.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'244068\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 08:36 PM\']My question though, how did the row of letters on the Sprint board work? The one that went from the black/white diamonds, to the blue/white stars, then the letters. Was that rear-projection? Tiny monitors? Solaris? They moved so fast I couldn't really tell.[/quote]
I can confirm they were CRT's. When I went to the show, a technician was working on degaussing them using some kind of circular electromagnet at the end of a rod.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'244068\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 07:36 PM\'][quote name=\'Jeremy Nelson\' post=\'244067\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 08:30 PM\']Did the operator of the letter screens on the contestants' podium have a run sheet that said which numbered tile corresponded to each letter? I'm assuming this is the case, and I figure the tiles were just there for "show", another plot device to connect the name of the show to Scrabble.[/quote]
Sounds about right. Could also explain why the contestants also called out the number of the tile.
[/quote]
If I recall correctly, they didn't call out the number of the tile when the show first started. And I don't think the tiles had numbers printed on them. I just figured it was for show and they randomly picked a letter off camera.
Another question: Did both players get the same choices of letters in the Scrabble Sprint, at least until they went through them all once?
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[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244081\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 09:41 PM\']And I don't think the tiles had numbers printed on them. I just figured it was for show and they randomly picked a letter off camera.[/quote]
Umm....I figured each tile would need to have a corresponding letter. Otherwise, what's keeping a producer from screwing a contestant by making both tiles they choose stoppers?
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[quote name=\'Jeremy Nelson\' post=\'244083\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 10:02 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244081\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 09:41 PM\']And I don't think the tiles had numbers printed on them. I just figured it was for show and they randomly picked a letter off camera.[/quote]
Umm....I figured each tile would need to have a corresponding letter. Otherwise, what's keeping a producer from screwing a contestant by making both tiles they choose stoppers?
[/quote]
A good teaching of ethics?
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[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244084\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 10:17 PM\'][quote name=\'Jeremy Nelson\' post=\'244083\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 10:02 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244081\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 09:41 PM\']And I don't think the tiles had numbers printed on them. I just figured it was for show and they randomly picked a letter off camera.[/quote]
Umm....I figured each tile would need to have a corresponding letter. Otherwise, what's keeping a producer from screwing a contestant by making both tiles they choose stoppers?
[/quote]
A good teaching of ethics?
[/quote]
Or a representative from the S&P department breathing down their necks?
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[quote name=\'snowpeck\' post=\'244085\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 10:44 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244084\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 10:17 PM\'][quote name=\'Jeremy Nelson\' post=\'244083\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 10:02 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244081\' date=\'Jul 13 2010, 09:41 PM\']And I don't think the tiles had numbers printed on them. I just figured it was for show and they randomly picked a letter off camera.[/quote]
Umm....I figured each tile would need to have a corresponding letter. Otherwise, what's keeping a producer from screwing a contestant by making both tiles they choose stoppers?
[/quote]
A good teaching of ethics?
[/quote]
Or a representative from the S&P department breathing down their necks?
[/quote]
But if there's no specific letter predetermined to correspond with each tile, why isn't S&P already on their case? The only solution would be the whole "tile in slot goes through magnetic reader" thing.
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How about they have a sheet with the letters (both good and stoppers) and tiles predetermined before the show, and S&P has to sign off on them?
Cheap, and fair.
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[quote name=\'NicholasM79\' post=\'244094\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 01:45 AM\']How about they have a sheet with the letters (both good and stoppers) and tiles predetermined before the show, and S&P has to sign off on them?
Cheap, and fair.[/quote]
That's all well & good. Say if there's more than one of the same letter involved with a given word. How do they determine which one(s) are good & which are the Stopper(s)? I figured there's some sort of priority system in that regard.
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[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' post=\'244098\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 02:27 AM\'][quote name=\'NicholasM79\' post=\'244094\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 01:45 AM\']How about they have a sheet with the letters (both good and stoppers) and tiles predetermined before the show, and S&P has to sign off on them?
Cheap, and fair.[/quote]
That's all well & good. Say if there's more than one of the same letter involved with a given word. How do they determine which one(s) are good & which are the Stopper(s)? I figured there's some sort of priority system in that regard.
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I thought that if they had duplicates, the first time the letter is chosen is always the good one, while the duplicate then became a stopper.
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[quote name=\'Jeremy Nelson\' post=\'244103\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 09:09 AM\'][quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' post=\'244098\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 02:27 AM\']Say if there's more than one of the same letter involved with a given word. How do they determine which one(s) are good & which are the Stopper(s)? I figured there's some sort of priority system in that regard.[/quote]
I thought that if they had duplicates, the first time the letter is chosen is always the good one, while the duplicate then became a stopper.
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Or. . . what if they just picked a totally different letter for the stopper?
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[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244105\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 07:29 AM\']Or. . . what if they just picked a totally different letter for the stopper?[/quote]
Then the potential for a Michael Larsen situation comes up. It wouldn't take some basement-dweller long to figure out "hey, if I pull double letters, I can place them both safely," and then have an advantage. Fairer to decide what the stoppers will be totally / mostly at random.
(If Jeremy's rule is correct, it works because a player has no choice but to place the first letter after drawing two / a second.)
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244111\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 12:28 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244105\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 07:29 AM\']Or. . . what if they just picked a totally different letter for the stopper?[/quote]
Then the potential for a Michael Larsen situation comes up. It wouldn't take some basement-dweller long to figure out "hey, if I pull double letters, I can place them both safely," and then have an advantage. Fairer to decide what the stoppers will be totally / mostly at random.
(If Jeremy's rule is correct, it works because a player has no choice but to place the first letter after drawing two / a second.)
[/quote]
I'm 99.9% sure Jeremy's rule is indeed correct. And you pretty much knew you were screwed if you drew two S's and the first fit into the last position of the word.
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[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244112\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 10:53 AM\']I'm 99.9% sure Jeremy's rule is indeed correct. And you pretty much knew you were screwed if you drew two S's and the first fit into the last position of the word.[/quote]
I think it is too. I just didn't want to say definitively since it's been so long since I've seen it.
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Every time I remember seeing the show way back when, in this situation, that is exactly what happened. First good, second stopper.
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From memory:
The tiles would've all had pre-determined letters. This makes the game on budget with the technology of the 80s. I'm not saying bar coding/RFID type stuff was impossible back then, but let's be realistic about what they would've likely used.
If there were two of the same letter in the word, a contestant picks two S, the word is assinine, the first time S is chosen it would fall into the 2nd space in the word, and the second time the S is chosen, it would fall into the 3rd space in the word.
This also follows if the player picked two A tiles, the first would fall into the 1st space in the word, the second would be the stopper.
As for the Scrabble Sprint, since two players had the same words to play (in the better versions of the show), the first two letters to appear were (I think my memory is correct here) always the same, and then everything else was random.
I never really knew how those letters were displayed as they had to be constantly shuffled around.
Scrabble was a show that almost always had the disclaimer read by Charlie Tuna during the credits, something like, "due to technical difficulties, portions of filming not affecting the outcome of the game were edited." I always figured out the equipment for the sprint rounds was tough to manage.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244111\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 12:28 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244105\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 07:29 AM\']Or. . . what if they just picked a totally different letter for the stopper?[/quote]
Then the potential for a Michael Larsen situation comes up. It wouldn't take some basement-dweller long to figure out "hey, if I pull double letters, I can place them both safely," and then have an advantage. Fairer to decide what the stoppers will be totally / mostly at random.
(If Jeremy's rule is correct, it works because a player has no choice but to place the first letter after drawing two / a second.)
[/quote]
Wow, it could cost NBC, like, hundreds of dollars! It wouldn't really be unfair--it could happen to either player. But yeah, throwing in a stopper that duplicates a letter in the puzzle once in a while is a less lazy, more satisfactory way to go.
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[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244112\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 01:53 PM\'][quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244111\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 12:28 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244105\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 07:29 AM\']Or. . . what if they just picked a totally different letter for the stopper?[/quote]
Then the potential for a Michael Larsen situation comes up. It wouldn't take some basement-dweller long to figure out "hey, if I pull double letters, I can place them both safely," and then have an advantage. Fairer to decide what the stoppers will be totally / mostly at random.
(If Jeremy's rule is correct, it works because a player has no choice but to place the first letter after drawing two / a second.)
[/quote]
I'm 99.9% sure Jeremy's rule is indeed correct. And you pretty much knew you were screwed if you drew two S's and the first fit into the last position of the word.
[/quote]
This is where you would buzz in and make some random wrong guess (or take too long) and get it wrong on purpose. Then the opponent has a choice of potentially another bad letter plus the one you may know is a stopper. It's kind of like passing a stopper to someone.
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[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244122\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 02:21 PM\']Wow, it could cost NBC, like, hundreds of dollars! It wouldn't really be unfair--it could happen to either player.[/quote]
I didn't suggest it would be unfair, I suggested it would be less fair. Bit of a difference. But you seem to see my point nonetheless.
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How about they have a sheet with the letters (both good and stoppers) and tiles predetermined before the show, and S&P has to sign off on them?
Having dealt with them, this is most certainly how NBC Compliance and Practices had them do it.
The Sprint Round had a series of 5" black-and-white monitors. The challenge was giving each one a CGA video feed, likely from a series of individual PCs (or Apples).
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This video supports the theory that there was a list of numbers and letters backstage. At 4:48 After Jamie Farr gets excited and randomly shoves two tiles down the slot, Chuck asks him to call out the numbers. Eventually the letters pop up but not as quickly as they would if it was a scanner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzTGBmQg4nw (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzTGBmQg4nw\")
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[quote name=\'DJDustman\' post=\'244123\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 04:32 PM\'][quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244112\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 01:53 PM\'][quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'244111\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 12:28 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'244105\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 07:29 AM\']Or. . . what if they just picked a totally different letter for the stopper?[/quote]
Then the potential for a Michael Larsen situation comes up. It wouldn't take some basement-dweller long to figure out "hey, if I pull double letters, I can place them both safely," and then have an advantage. Fairer to decide what the stoppers will be totally / mostly at random.
(If Jeremy's rule is correct, it works because a player has no choice but to place the first letter after drawing two / a second.)
[/quote]
I'm 99.9% sure Jeremy's rule is indeed correct. And you pretty much knew you were screwed if you drew two S's and the first fit into the last position of the word.
[/quote]
This is where you would buzz in and make some random wrong guess (or take too long) and get it wrong on purpose. Then the opponent has a choice of potentially another bad letter plus the one you may know is a stopper. It's kind of like passing a stopper to someone.
[/quote]
That is a possibility. But that to me is a better alternative than not allowing duplicate letters to be stoppers.
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[quote name=\'gameshowcrazy\' post=\'244119\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 04:12 PM\']Scrabble was a show that almost always had the disclaimer read by Charlie Tuna during the credits, something like, "due to technical difficulties, portions of filming not affecting the outcome of the game were edited." I always figured out the equipment for the sprint rounds was tough to manage.[/quote]
Actually, the announcer wouldn't say that, it would just be CG text on the screen during the credits. Any time that Charlie Tuna would speak (and other announcers on other shows) regarding what's been edited out is if a puzzle was thrown out or someone was ruled ineligible.
/"Portions of this program not affecting the outcome of the competition have been edited"
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My recollection from the way I studied the show for a possible trip to L.A.: Multiple letters showed up would be placed left to right in the word. A letter in the word could also be a stopper, but all of the "good" letters would be placed before the stopper. Therefore, if you drew two Ss, and the first one placed is the last position in the word, the second S is certainly a stopper.
Not every word had the good/stopper letter, but the ones that did helped keep a word from being forced to Speedword too quickly.
As far as the number tiles, I think the simplest way that it might have worked: I assume the tile tray is wired up. When you remove a tile, it turns off a light offstage. The production person then relays the letter to the display operator to place in the desk monitor, who syncs up the letter appearance with the tile drop to make it appear as if the tile activated the letter.
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[quote name=\'Otm Shank\' post=\'244166\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 11:17 PM\']As far as the number tiles, I think the simplest way that it might have worked: I assume the tile tray is wired up. When you remove a tile, it turns off a light offstage. The production person then relays the letter to the display operator to place in the desk monitor, who syncs up the letter appearance with the tile drop to make it appear as if the tile activated the letter.[/quote]
My understanding from one of the contestant coordinators was that it was even simpler than that...There was always a camera on the contestant selecting tiles, so no letters were displayed until they could see. This is also why they switched from the opaque tiles with small numbers on the corners to the solid white on blue tiles with large numbers in the middle -- and also why the contestants were required to 'call' their tiles. If a contestant 'called' a tile incorrectly, Chuck would usually catch it and correct it (sometimes prompted)
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Here an example of the tiles working independently from the letters; from Scrabble '93: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s\")
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[quote name=\'gameshowcrazy\' post=\'244119\' date=\'Jul 14 2010, 03:12 PM\']If there were two of the same letter in the word, a contestant picks two S, the word is assinine, the first time S is chosen it would fall into the 2nd space in the word, and the second time the S is chosen, it would fall into the 3rd space in the word.[/quote]
Actually, the second S would be a stopper, since your spelling is asinine.
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[quote name=\'golden-road\' post=\'244183\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 07:53 AM\']Here an example of the tiles working independently from the letters; from Scrabble '93: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s\")[/quote]
Am I crazy (don't answer that), or were only eight tiles showing when they played the word "sausages"?
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[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244187\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 10:29 AM\'][quote name=\'golden-road\' post=\'244183\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 07:53 AM\']Here an example of the tiles working independently from the letters; from Scrabble '93: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s\")[/quote]
Am I crazy (don't answer that), or were only eight tiles showing when they played the word "sausages"?
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I think the other three were off camera.
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[quote name=\'golden-road\' post=\'244188\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 09:55 AM\'][quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244187\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 10:29 AM\'][quote name=\'golden-road\' post=\'244183\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 07:53 AM\']Here an example of the tiles working independently from the letters; from Scrabble '93: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s\")[/quote]
Am I crazy (don't answer that), or were only eight tiles showing when they played the word "sausages"?
[/quote]
I think the other three were off camera.
[/quote]
Should've been two others, but how would they be off camera? All 10 tiles necessary (the first "A" is already accounted for, so it doesn't need a tile) should be directly in between the two contestants, no? And when the tiles come up, I only count eight (that may also have been part of why Woolery had to walk over [and it was a pretty obvious edit]--the contestant Ryan seemingly only had one tile to pick from).
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[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244194\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 11:05 AM\'][quote name=\'golden-road\' post=\'244188\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 09:55 AM\'][quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'244187\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 10:29 AM\'][quote name=\'golden-road\' post=\'244183\' date=\'Jul 15 2010, 07:53 AM\']Here an example of the tiles working independently from the letters; from Scrabble '93: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZTyBunGIQI#t=06m40s\")[/quote]
Am I crazy (don't answer that), or were only eight tiles showing when they played the word "sausages"?
[/quote]
I think the other three were off camera.
[/quote]
Should've been two others, but how would they be off camera? All 10 tiles necessary (the first "A" is already accounted for, so it doesn't need a tile) should be directly in between the two contestants, no? And when the tiles come up, I only count eight (that may also have been part of why Woolery had to walk over [and it was a pretty obvious edit]--the contestant Ryan seemingly only had one tile to pick from).
[/quote]
After the first stopper, I only see six, which are all evenly spaced. If there had been 10 tiles in the rack, there should have been a gap in the sequence near the left side since #8 had already been drawn. Also, immediately after that, the female contestant draws #5, which is third from the end, which is consistent with #7 being the leftmost tile at that moment (after #8 was already drawn).
/I feel like Mr Zapruder
//or whoever went through his film.