The Game Show Forum

The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: pownster on September 20, 2010, 08:50:17 AM

Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: pownster on September 20, 2010, 08:50:17 AM
We were blessed with an absolute treat tonight - a full half hour program dedicated to the godfather of Aussie TV and game show mogul, Reg Grundy. He granted an extremely rare interview to Aussie journalist Tracey Grimshaw at his "humble abode" in Bermuda. He talked about his career (the ups and downs), his love of boats and photography, and a little on his family as well. It was an unbelievable insight into this amazing man's life. The show was also filled with lots of clips from the many hundreds of shows he produced over his 35+ year career, not only in the area of game shows, but in drama/soaps as well.

If all goes well, I might try and get a clip up for people to see.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 20, 2010, 02:19:34 PM
A story I've heard about Mr. Grundy is that he would travel to New York, take a hotel room, turn on the TV at 10 am and, sitting with a legal pad, crib the game show formats that came on. He would then go back to Australia and produce them there, basically ripping off the formats he saw in New York. That's the story, anyway. Does he talk about that?
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: BrandonFG on September 20, 2010, 02:54:47 PM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'247941\' date=\'Sep 20 2010, 02:19 PM\']A story I've heard about Mr. Grundy is that he would travel to New York, take a hotel room, turn on the TV at 10 am and, sitting with a legal pad, crib the game show formats that came on.[/quote]
I know you're making another point, but if only the American producers did that much work with their foreign imports...

/I slightly keed
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: pownster on September 20, 2010, 04:59:31 PM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'247941\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 04:19 AM\']A story I've heard about Mr. Grundy is that he would travel to New York, take a hotel room, turn on the TV at 10 am and, sitting with a legal pad, crib the game show formats that came on. He would then go back to Australia and produce them there, basically ripping off the formats he saw in New York. That's the story, anyway. Does he talk about that?[/quote]

It certainly was mentioned. In fact, RG used to actually record the shows on tape as well, and then reproduce the shows for the Australian market, only making minor changes as required to suit the local conditions. During the 1960's-early 1980's, there was no convention in place between Australia and the US which prevented formats from being "borrowed" by other production companies (hence the mass copying whcih occurred with game shows at that time). By the time the regulations caught up, Reg had enough cash to pay the licencing fees (an din the case of "Sale"), to buy the global rights.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: weaklink75 on September 20, 2010, 08:42:24 PM
I found the video of the whole program- The man doesn't look 87, I'll give him that...and I might consider getting his biography if I can find one at the right price somewhere...

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX5WPqqVtA (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX5WPqqVtA\")

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v9koo1Ltts (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v9koo1Ltts\")

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_70LbDAvafc (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_70LbDAvafc\")
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Matt Ottinger on September 20, 2010, 10:10:03 PM
[quote name=\'pownster\' post=\'247958\' date=\'Sep 20 2010, 04:59 PM\']RG used to actually record the shows on tape as well, and then reproduce the shows for the Australian market, only making minor changes as required to suit the local conditions. During the 1960's-early 1980's, there was no convention in place between Australia and the US which prevented formats from being "borrowed" by other production companies (hence the mass copying which occurred with game shows at that time).[/quote]
That certainly puts something like this (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBEg2lfazL0\") into a new light.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 21, 2010, 02:48:07 AM
American producers built their companies, fortunes and reputations on creativity. Reg Grundy built his on plagiarism. 'Nuf said.

Thank you, pownster, for the illuminating post.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Joe Mello on September 21, 2010, 10:10:48 AM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'247997\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 02:48 AM\']Reg Grundy built his on plagiarism. 'Nuf said.[/quote]
In other words, he's the ur-example of the modern TV mogul.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: TimK2003 on September 21, 2010, 10:18:03 AM
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'247984\' date=\'Sep 20 2010, 08:10 PM\'][quote name=\'pownster\' post=\'247958\' date=\'Sep 20 2010, 04:59 PM\']RG used to actually record the shows on tape as well, and then reproduce the shows for the Australian market, only making minor changes as required to suit the local conditions. During the 1960's-early 1980's, there was no convention in place between Australia and the US which prevented formats from being "borrowed" by other production companies (hence the mass copying which occurred with game shows at that time).[/quote]
That certainly puts something like this (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBEg2lfazL0\") into a new light.
[/quote]

That's OK, we got even...Dana Carvey "borrowed" the looks of the third contestant in that clip and...   :)
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: clemon79 on September 21, 2010, 01:46:44 PM
[quote name=\'Joe Mello\' post=\'248011\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 07:10 AM\'][quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'247997\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 02:48 AM\']Reg Grundy built his on plagiarism. 'Nuf said.[/quote]
In other words, he's the ur-example of the modern TV mogul.[/quote]
There is a difference between something that is derivative, and something that is a straight-up carbon copy.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Matt Ottinger on September 21, 2010, 02:04:40 PM
[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'248024\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 01:46 PM\']There is a difference between something that is derivative, and something that is a straight-up carbon copy.[/quote]
Exactly.  If, in fact, the Three on a Match game was plagarized (and certainly that would be consistant with what we're hearing), it's creepy just how much of the look was copied, including the creation of a virtual replica of the contestant section, and making a big deal about the colored boxes in an era where the Australian network was still black and white!
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: clemon79 on September 21, 2010, 02:35:57 PM
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'248026\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 11:04 AM\']and making a big deal about the colored boxes in an era where the Australian network was still black and white![/quote]
Well, wait. The opening blurb touts it as "Australia's first color game show." Is it possible that there was a color feed and the person providing the clip just didn't have access to it?
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Matt Ottinger on September 21, 2010, 03:14:33 PM
[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'248029\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 02:35 PM\'][quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'248026\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 11:04 AM\']and making a big deal about the colored boxes in an era where the Australian network was still black and white![/quote]
Well, wait. The opening blurb touts it as "Australia's first color game show." Is it possible that there was a color feed and the person providing the clip just didn't have access to it?[/quote]
We discussed this in an earlier thread that I'm too lazy to track down.  At the time, I got the impression that Australian TV didn't go color until 1975, but a little bit of current research suggests that's the year that they were color full-time.  I imagine it's possible (even likely, given the intro) that this throwaway game show was broadcast in color after all.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: joshg on September 21, 2010, 03:31:40 PM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'247997\' date=\'Sep 20 2010, 11:48 PM\']American producers built their companies, fortunes and reputations on creativity. Reg Grundy built his on plagiarism. 'Nuf said.

Thank you, pownster, for the illuminating post.[/quote]
And it's kind of funny that his old company and G-T are now under the same "umbrella"...
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 21, 2010, 03:49:44 PM
Quote
There is a difference between something that is derivative, and something that is a straight-up carbon copy.
Right. When shows such as The Weakest Link and Deal Or No Deal are brought to the U.S., everything is done above board; contracts are drawn up and money changes hands. The originator of the idea gets some compensation for his brainchild. Contrast this with ripping off a show lock, stock and title, right down to the set design. Unlike, say, Bob Stewart, who made his fortune by the sweat of his intellectual brow, Reg Grundy's only apparent talent was in ripping off and mimicking other shows.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: pownster on September 21, 2010, 08:21:05 PM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'248039\' date=\'Sep 22 2010, 05:49 AM\']
Quote
There is a difference between something that is derivative, and something that is a straight-up carbon copy.
Right. When shows such as The Weakest Link and Deal Or No Deal are brought to the U.S., everything is done above board; contracts are drawn up and money changes hands. The originator of the idea gets some compensation for his brainchild. Contrast this with ripping off a show lock, stock and title, right down to the set design. Unlike, say, Bob Stewart, who made his fortune by the sweat of his intellectual brow, Reg Grundy's only apparent talent was in ripping off and mimicking other shows.
[/quote]

In defense of Reg, once the laws were passed in the 1980's around copyright on game show formats - his production company did pay for the rights to all his formats, and continued to do so right up until Fremantle gobbled the company up. No laws were actually broken - however, you could probably question the ethics of it all.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 21, 2010, 09:24:38 PM
Quote
In defense of Reg, once the laws were passed in the 1980's around copyright on game show formats - his production company did pay for the rights to all his formats
Of course! He had to, lest he be in violation of the law! Did he pay retroactively for all the formats he swiped? I rather doubt it. When the laws were passed in the '80s, did he start paying for the formats he had already ripped off presumably without the owner's permission, or did he go back and obtain permission from the copyright holders? In other words, suppose he had Three On a Match in production, presumably without the consent of its owner, Bob Stewart. When the laws were enacted, did he simply start writing checks for a format he appropriated presumably without permission, or did he go to Bob Stewart and ask for his approval to produce an Australian version of the show? Were the formats in production at the time "grandfathered", as we say, when the laws passed?

Quote
No laws were actually broken - however, you could probably question the ethics of it all.
I would definitely question the ethics of exploiting the intellectual property of others without compensating them.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: rjaguar3 on September 22, 2010, 12:33:34 AM
[quote name=\'pownster\' post=\'248051\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 07:21 PM\']In defense of Reg, once the laws were passed in the 1980's around copyright on game show formats[/quote]

Could you please elaborate on this?  I'd like to read this.

I know that at least in the United States, when you're dealing with game show formats, the threshold needed for infringement is significantly higher than usual.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: inturnaround on September 22, 2010, 09:04:08 AM
A home viewer wouldn't care where Grundy got his ideas or how they were obtained, they'd just like the product as presented. And, from all I'm hearing, they did like it. So I understand why Grundy is well-regarded by his fellow countrymen. I can also understand by GT or Bob Stewart wouldn't care for him...but me, I just don't care.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Dbacksfan12 on September 22, 2010, 11:18:06 AM
Considering Goodson pretty much screwed Bob Stewart over...I don't have much sympathy for him.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: 14gameshows on September 22, 2010, 03:04:44 PM
[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'248087\' date=\'Sep 22 2010, 11:18 AM\']Considering Goodson pretty much screwed Bob Stewart over...I don't have much sympathy for him.[/quote]

Care to shed some light on this?  This is interesting!
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 23, 2010, 05:12:22 PM
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' post=\'248107\' date=\'Sep 22 2010, 12:04 PM\'][quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'248087\' date=\'Sep 22 2010, 11:18 AM\']Considering Goodson pretty much screwed Bob Stewart over...I don't have much sympathy for him.[/quote]

Care to shed some light on this?  This is interesting![/quote]
Yes, I'd like to hear this theory, too. Bob Stewart was properly compensated for his work for G-T and left of his own volition.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: MisterBlue on September 24, 2010, 01:02:23 AM
I was always under the impression that Stewart thought he didn't have enough clout in Goodson's company, and that's why he left.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Dbacksfan12 on September 24, 2010, 01:40:32 AM
I thought there was a story out that said Goodson screwed Stewart out of royalties...specifically for TTTT and TPiR.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: William A. Padron on September 24, 2010, 08:07:53 AM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'248166\' date=\'Sep 23 2010, 05:12 PM\'][quote name=\'14gameshows\' post=\'248107\' date=\'Sep 22 2010, 12:04 PM\'][quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'248087\' date=\'Sep 22 2010, 11:18 AM\']Considering Goodson pretty much screwed Bob Stewart over...I don't have much sympathy for him.[/quote]

Care to shed some light on this?  This is interesting![/quote]
Yes, I'd like to hear this theory, too. Bob Stewart was properly compensated for his work for G-T and left of his own volition.
[/quote]

I heard one story that, while G-T was paying good money to him as a producer at the company, Goodson claimed while having dinner with Stewart that he was his "prince".  Stewart's reply to Goodson, "But Mark, I want to be king!"
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: Neumms on September 24, 2010, 03:05:53 PM
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'248052\' date=\'Sep 21 2010, 08:24 PM\']
Quote
No laws were actually broken - however, you could probably question the ethics of it all.
I would definitely question the ethics of exploiting the intellectual property of others without compensating them.
[/quote]

Australia is a nation settled by convicts, after all.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 25, 2010, 02:50:17 AM
Quote
I thought there was a story out that said Goodson screwed Stewart out of royalties...specifically for TTTT and TPiR.
Bob Stewart did not have an ownership stake in the company or any of the shows he produced (like all of Goodson's producers* including Barker) so there were no royalties to be screwed out of. Frank Wayne used to grouse about Goodson cutting off the company profit sharing plan, almost to Goodson's face.

Quote
I heard one story that, while G-T was paying good money to him as a producer at the company, Goodson claimed while having dinner with Stewart that he was his "prince". Stewart's reply to Goodson, "But Mark, I want to be king!"
I've heard that one, too. Goodson already had a business partner and didn't want another one, I suppose.

*Garry Moore came to own IGAS. While not a producer, he was the exception.
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: tvrandywest on September 25, 2010, 01:48:01 PM
So many threads end up so full of conjecture and far afield from reality, that's it's great to see this one remain rooted in reality. I can confirm a few things:

Al Howard created Sale of the Century and was quite ticked for many years that Mr. Grundy did indeed periodically fly to New York, check into hotels, take detailed notes and mount the U.S. shows in his country. While despised for the practice, the consensus among that era's producers seemed to be a grudging respect for Grundy who at least understood enough about the intricacies of the games' formats to mount faithful recreations that worked. But millions of dollars of what is now called intellectual property was beyond the reach of the laws of the time.

When Bob Stewart was an employee of GT's his creations were "works for hire." There was never any expectation that Mr. Stewart would receive any royalty. Goodson did lavish him him the healthy salary and bonuses that were reserved for his top people, and that was part of what was behind the comment "Bob, I made you a prince." Bob Stewart confirmed for me that he did respond "But Mark, I want to be king." His frustrations included issues of autonomy and authorship, and were not only about money. The two did not speak for many years, until they finally exchanged words at the wedding of a mutual friend / employee in the 1980s.

Randy
tvrandywest.com
Title: Special on Reg Grundy tonight (in Oz)
Post by: chris319 on September 25, 2010, 05:16:38 PM
We've all read The Box so I won't rehash the story, other than Goodson didn't like one of Stewart's ideas, resulting in Stewart leaving the company and striking out on his own.

I still have check stubs from Mindreaders. Want to see one of my royalty checks for Switch? or Line 'Em Up? OK, close your eyes ...

Switch? and Line 'Em Up were sat on like a couple of eggs until someone on the TPIR staff pulled a Reg Grundy on me :-)

Quote
While despised for the practice, the consensus among that era's producers seemed to be a grudging respect for Grundy who at least understood enough about the intricacies of the games' formats to mount faithful recreations that worked.
You know, Randy, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Grundy had a shill go in and become a contestant on these shows and purloined the bible that way, or that he greased the palm of someone at the network. It's far fetched and I'm not saying it happened, but still ...

/Yes, Line 'Em Up is mine too (from the era of four-digit car prices) but someone else gave it the horizontal sliders.

//Still got those eyes closed?