The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Twentington on January 23, 2011, 03:53:50 PM
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A while back, I remember seeing a clip from a mid-1990s Wheel episode with a particularly esoteric Clue puzzle — the puzzle answer had something to do with a butler, the correct response was "Crumbs or ashes" and both Pat and the contestant were baffled as to what the puzzle even meant. I've looked all over but can't find this clip. Does anyone remember this puzzle, or know where it might be hiding?
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255407\' date=\'Jan 23 2011, 02:53 PM\']A while back, I remember seeing a clip from a mid-1990s Wheel episode with a particularly esoteric Clue puzzle — the puzzle answer had something to do with a butler, the correct response was "Crumbs or ashes" and both Pat and the contestant were baffled as to what the puzzle even meant. I've looked all over but can't find this clip. Does anyone remember this puzzle, or know where it might be hiding?[/quote]
Google sez: SILENT BUTLER'S TARGETS
A silent butler is a simple receptacle with a hinged lid. Can be used with a small broom for sweeping up messes.
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[quote name=\'parliboy\' post=\'255497\' date=\'Jan 24 2011, 11:51 AM\'][quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255407\' date=\'Jan 23 2011, 02:53 PM\']A while back, I remember seeing a clip from a mid-1990s Wheel episode with a particularly esoteric Clue puzzle — the puzzle answer had something to do with a butler, the correct response was "Crumbs or ashes" and both Pat and the contestant were baffled as to what the puzzle even meant. I've looked all over but can't find this clip. Does anyone remember this puzzle, or know where it might be hiding?[/quote]
Google sez: SILENT BUTLER'S TARGETS
A silent butler is a simple receptacle with a hinged lid. Can be used with a small broom for sweeping up messes.
[/quote]
A silent butler can also refer to the trope of a butler who walks around dumbly with a feather duster.
ETA: The highlight of the moment in question was one player's valiant guess of "The maid."
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The Clue puzzles used to be pretty tough in comparison to what they were in the early 2000s (I don't think we'd have seen something like THE SOUL OF WIT in the 2000s), but damn. If not even the host knows what you're talking about, you know you've picked a doozy.
Honestly, I think we can put this one in the "budget saver" category. And really, I'd put it at a pretty close second behind the infamous FJ! about Liederkranz cheese, which I still hold as the gold standard of "most ridiculously unfair game show answer ever".
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255511\' date=\'Jan 24 2011, 06:37 PM\']Honestly, I think we can put this one in the "budget saver" category. And really, I'd put it at a pretty close second behind the infamous FJ! about Liederkranz cheese, which I still hold as the gold standard of "most ridiculously unfair game show answer ever".[/quote]You mean under the category of "game show answer I didn't know."
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'255551\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 02:47 PM\'][quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255511\' date=\'Jan 24 2011, 06:37 PM\']Honestly, I think we can put this one in the "budget saver" category. And really, I'd put it at a pretty close second behind the infamous FJ! about Liederkranz cheese, which I still hold as the gold standard of "most ridiculously unfair game show answer ever".[/quote]You mean under the category of "game show answer I didn't know."
[/quote]
No, I mean under "Most ridiculously unfair game show answer ever, in my personal opinion."
I admit I have a fairly narrow knowledge range, and probably don't have much justification to call out any answer as particularly tough. But this poll (http://\"http://boards.sonypictures.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42496&highlight=liederkranz\") is rather telling in regards to Liederkranz.
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255561\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 12:26 PM\']I admit I have a fairly narrow knowledge range, and probably don't have much justification to call out any answer as particularly tough. But...[/quote]
You can stop right there.
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255561\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 12:26 PM\']in my personal opinion."[/quote]
At least he didn't claim it was "humble."
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'255571\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 02:05 PM\']You can stop right there.[/quote]"Oh, sorry, the correct answer was 'Prosecution rests, your honor.' You don't win the grand prize, but you'll take home some lovely parting gifts. Did you have a good time?"
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255561\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 02:26 PM\']I admit I have a fairly narrow knowledge range, and probably don't have much justification to call out any answer as particularly tough. But this poll (http://\"http://boards.sonypictures.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42496&highlight=liederkranz\") is rather telling in regards to Liederkranz.[/quote]
Do you always have to beat yourself up every time someone proves you wrong? Is this some attempt at guilting people?
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255561\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 03:26 PM\']But this poll (http://\"http://boards.sonypictures.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42496&highlight=liederkranz\") is rather telling in regards to Liederkranz.[/quote]While I'll be the first to say I would'nt have known the answer either, 57 people in a country of 307,000,000 really isn't a very good sample size.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'255609\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 08:30 AM\'][quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255561\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 03:26 PM\']But this poll (http://\"http://boards.sonypictures.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42496&highlight=liederkranz\") is rather telling in regards to Liederkranz.[/quote]While I'll be the first to say I would'nt have known the answer either, 57 people in a country of 307,000,000 really isn't a very good sample size.[/quote]
To be fair (though it sometimes feels like I'm the only one trying to do that) a 57/69 ratio of die-hard Jeopardy fans, most of whom are infinitely better than Bobby at the game, who gather together to specifically discuss the difficulty of Final Jeopardy clues is a pretty striking statistic. There are weekly polls about each FJ clue, and periodically, the pollster gathers the clues that received the lowest percentages of correct responses and asks the membership to choose the most difficult among them.
It's pretty legitimate to say that clue earned its distinction as being one of the toughest ever. This would be the equivalent of asking the membership of Golden Road to pick their least favorite Showcase of the year, and 82% of them named the same one. The fact that Bobby finds it necessary to trot it out over here as "infamous", as if it's another one of those damned tropes we're all supposed to know, is another issue entirely.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'255609\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 05:30 AM\']While I'll be the first to say I would'nt have known the answer either, 57 people in a country of 307,000,000 really isn't a very good sample size.[/quote]Ask about 400 more people, and you got a poll. You wanna volunteer? :)
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'255610\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 05:48 AM\']The fact that Bobby finds it necessary to trot it out over here as "infamous", as if it's another one of those damned tropes we're all supposed to know, is another issue entirely.[/quote]That just about sums up my problem with it. Need a shortcut way to say something was terrifically difficult? "Liederkranz! See what I did there?"
I looked at the clue, had no idea what they were going for, but I learned something, which is half the reason I watch the program in the first place. I'm also full of good faith in assuming that the author of that clue assumed that at least one of the three players would be able to solve it, and that someone didn't just go all power trippy and say "I had a bad date last night, and instead of kicking my dog I'm going to take it out on Jeopardy! contestants."
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'255616\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 11:09 AM\']I'm also full of good faith in assuming that the author of that clue assumed that at least one of the three players would be able to solve it, and that someone didn't just go all power trippy and say "I had a bad date last night, and instead of kicking my dog I'm going to take it out on Jeopardy! contestants."[/quote]
I agree with this completely. Jeopardy and Wheel are both way past the point where they need to fiddle with the final round to control their budgets. That may have been an issue in the 70s, where shows were necessarily cheaper to produce in the first place and Bob Stewart might put "Things that Aren't Chartreuse" in the top box when he'd had a few too many wins in the week. With these two cash cows, assigning an ulterior motive to an occasional tough clue or tough bonus puzzle is just silly.
I've always felt that a good Final Jeopardy clue is one that at least one contestant gets and at least once contestant misses. I'd like to think that's what the writers are shooting for every time.
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All I said was "I thought Liederkranz was the toughest clue I've ever seen, in my opinion, and Silent Butler the second hardest — and in my opinion, both felt like so-called 'budget saver' clues." I was never trying to imply that they actually were, just what they felt like to me.
Because frankly, game shows would become quite boring if people playing from home knew all the answers, all the time.
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255561\' date=\'Jan 25 2011, 12:26 PM\']I admit I have a fairly narrow knowledge range, and probably don't have much justification to call out any answer as particularly tough. But[/quote]But it sounds like that's what you're doing, even if that isn't your intent. It isn't the job of the show to write 61 clues that you're going to be able to question correctly.
Why is it that you have such a narrow knowledge range? One of the things that any trivia tests is how much attention you pay to the world around you. What books you've read, plays you've seen, the music you listen to, that whole deal. If you don't participate in that world, or seek out that knowledge, then yes, a great deal of the material on a quiz show is going to go over your head.
When I was about 22 years old, I thought my trivia skills were in a rut. But now that I'm thirty years old, I realized that they were in a rut, because I wasn't getting into other areas of knowledge. Now I'm older, trying out new stuff, and it manifests in my ability to handle more of what Jeopardy! throws my way. I see no reason that the same can't work for you, but if you just say "Oh, that's tough, but Jeopardy! is a game of luck as much as skill," then brag about blank solves on Wheel of Fortune, the response from the group at large is gonna be "meh."
[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'255609\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 05:30 AM\']57 people in a country of 307,000,000 really isn't a very good sample size.[/quote]Let's assume that at their absolute zenith of popularity during the days of Ken, that thirty million people watched the show. (I don't actually care what the real number is, I'm just using that.) In an absolute frenzy of watching, 90 percent of America was watching something Other Than Jeopardy, or not watching TV at all. And Jeopardy! probably doesn't care overmuch about programming to that group of people. I'll say it again: they're not out to be mean and nasty. They're trying to hit a sweet spot of interesting, factual and playable material that will challenge and entertain as much of that audience as possible.
To the survey size, you really don't need to poll more than about 500 people to get an accurate gauge of the population (depending on the margin of error). But for people who are fannish enough about Jeopardy! to post to a message board, I like my odds with that group.
[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'255627\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 10:52 AM\']All I said was "I thought Liederkranz was the toughest clue I've ever seen, in my opinion, and Silent Butler the second hardest — and in my opinion, both felt like so-called 'budget saver' clues." I was never trying to imply that they actually were, just what they felt like to me.[/quote]If you don't know that a silent butler is in fact a thing (a hinged box that collects those crumbs and ashes) and not Emile Autouri's long lost brother holding a silver tray, then yes, I can see how that would be hard.
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'255652\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 09:10 PM\']When I was about 22 years old, I thought my trivia skills were in a rut. But now that I'm thirty years old, I realized that they were in a rut, because I wasn't getting into other areas of knowledge. Now I'm older, trying out new stuff, and it manifests in my ability to handle more of what Jeopardy! throws my way.[/quote]
I probably should've clarified what I meant: I have a fairly narrow knowledge range in comparison to the cognoscenti on the J! boards, which includes a large number of former J! champions and/or otherwise complete trivia sponges. Looking at my score sheet for this season, I see that I give about 22 to 28 right answers every game, not counting the far-too-high number of answers that are in my head but never make it out of my mouth because I get gunshy, blank out, etc.
I've been able to identify two of the biggest holes in my knowledge — literature and history, in part becuase I got virtually none of either in high school — but besides "oh yeah, they had a clue about that a few weeks ago!" I haven't yet found anything that'll get them to stick. I know I've played the same "Countries of Africa" Sporcle quiz quite a number of times, but I still can't seem to remember that Mauritania and Angola are even countries, much less ones in Africa.
[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'255652\' date=\'Jan 26 2011, 09:10 PM\']If you don't know that a silent butler is in fact a thing (a hinged box that collects those crumbs and ashes) and not Emile Autouri's long lost brother holding a silver tray, then yes, I can see how that would be hard.[/quote]
I don't have the clip available for reference, but I seem to recall even Pat acting completely baffled at this one.