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The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: toetyper on April 14, 2011, 10:16:04 PM

Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: toetyper on April 14, 2011, 10:16:04 PM
were the setups randomly generated or handpicked
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: DoorNumberFour on April 14, 2011, 10:38:28 PM
were the setups randomly generated or handpicked
I doubt they were handpicked. Kinda like the Super Mario Bros. 3 memory bonus game (http://"http://faqs.neoseeker.com/Games/NES/super_mario_brothers_3_card.png")--if you know where two of them are, you could know where they all are and pretty easily take NBC for a car. I doubt they would have made their bonus that beatable, especially post-Larsen.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: Dbacksfan12 on April 14, 2011, 10:45:56 PM
were the setups randomly generated or handpicked
I doubt they were handpicked. Kinda like the Super Mario Bros. 3 memory bonus game (http://"http://faqs.neoseeker.com/Games/NES/super_mario_brothers_3_card.png")--if you know where two of them are, you could know where they all are and pretty easily take NBC for a car.
How is the computer picking one and six and a human doing the exact same thing any different?
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: Matt Ottinger on April 14, 2011, 10:50:39 PM
I doubt they were handpicked. Kinda like the Super Mario Bros. 3 memory bonus game (http://"http://faqs.neoseeker.com/Games/NES/super_mario_brothers_3_card.png")--if you know where two of them are, you could know where they all are and pretty easily take NBC for a car. I doubt they would have made their bonus that beatable, especially post-Larsen.
I'm afraid I don't see your point.  They could have been handpicked without there being regular, predictable patterns.  Mr. Blumenthal says that's the way he always did his truly "classic" version.  Heck, they could have been handpicked and still essentially be random if the person doing the picking is just throwing them up there.

I have no idea, but it seems perfectly plausible to me that they could have been done either way.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: rjaguar3 on April 15, 2011, 01:38:33 AM
I doubt they were handpicked. Kinda like the Super Mario Bros. 3 memory bonus game (http://"http://faqs.neoseeker.com/Games/NES/super_mario_brothers_3_card.png")--if you know where two of them are, you could know where they all are and pretty easily take NBC for a car. I doubt they would have made their bonus that beatable, especially post-Larsen.
I'm afraid I don't see your point.  They could have been handpicked without there being regular, predictable patterns.  Mr. Blumenthal says that's the way he always did his truly "classic" version.  Heck, they could have been handpicked and still essentially be random if the person doing the picking is just throwing them up there.

I have no idea, but it seems perfectly plausible to me that they could have been done either way.

As someone who programmed a lot in QBasic in the early 2000s, I can say that, based on my understanding of programming history, it would have definitely been possible to assign cars to spaces pseudorandomly using 1980s technology (and high-level languages like BASIC).  What I mean by pseudorandomly is that the algorithm uses random numbers based on a random number generator, which given a seed value (which can be set to the exact clock time of the computer), deterministically produces a series of numbers that appear to have no pattern.  If you reset the random number generator with the same seed, you would get exactly the same sequence of random numbers. and the algorithm will give you the exact same placement of all the car names behind the squares.  However, using a RANDOMIZE TIMER command to generate all the random numbers used gives you 8,640,000 possible seeds (and therefore possible patterns).  Certainly, it's not truly random, but I would be hard pressed to find a significant deviation from true randomness using only a limited sample of board patterns.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: TLEberle on April 15, 2011, 01:41:55 AM
I doubt they were handpicked. Kinda like the Super Mario Bros. 3 memory bonus game (http://"http://faqs.neoseeker.com/Games/NES/super_mario_brothers_3_card.png")--if you know where two of them are, you could know where they all are and pretty easily take NBC for a car. I doubt they would have made their bonus that beatable, especially post-Larsen.
As to the point about Toad's Matching Game, doesn't it take up a bunch less memory on the cart if you program just enough boards to keep things interesting, as opposed to having to seed the eighteen panels beforehand?
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: clemon79 on April 15, 2011, 01:44:54 AM
However, using a RANDOMIZE TIMER command to generate all the random numbers used gives you 8,640,000 possible seeds (and therefore possible patterns).
We nee to put you in touch with the folks who did Deal or No Deal for the DS. :)
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: narzo on April 15, 2011, 10:42:41 AM
I don't know how it was set up but I vividly recall one female contestant who went up there and picked off matches one by one.  When she started off picking something like 1 and 11, or some equally odd pairing, I thought "what a moron, she's going to blow this" but it matched.  Then her next 2 matched, then her 3rd pair.  There may have been one or two goofs but she basically went up and just plucked off the matches.  Coincidence?
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: clemon79 on April 15, 2011, 01:12:04 PM
Coincidence?
Probably. It's certainly unlikely but not impossible.

The people I enjoyed the most, kinda like the people on Wipeout (the decent Peter Tomarken show, not that abortion on ABC) who just applied a system to the endgame and won it that way with little regard for the actual question, were the people who systematically went through the board, took whatever lucky matches they got along the way, and then after one pass went back and plucked off the remaining ones, bam-bam-bam. Didn't happen often, mind you, but the keeping-cool-under-pressure always impressed me when it did. Dunno if I could stay that composed.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: vtown7 on April 15, 2011, 04:59:40 PM
Here's one of those Wipeout eps... the system works!

wipeout hax (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9T6sW7vTI")

Enjoy,
Ryan ;)
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: JasonA1 on April 15, 2011, 05:19:46 PM
It bears mentioning the guy had the absolute perfect layout of correct answers to make the trick look that much better.

-Jason
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: clemon79 on April 15, 2011, 05:25:32 PM
It bears mentioning the guy had the absolute perfect layout of correct answers to make the trick look that much better.
Yes. It's still very doable, but it definitely gets a little trickier as soon as there are three or more correct answers in one of the lines.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: Matt Ottinger on April 15, 2011, 06:05:45 PM
Of course, if you're REALLY good at the Wipeout game, there ought to be at least a couple answers that you're certain are correct anyway.  At that point, props to you if you can rethink your strategy in time to accommodate those automatic choices.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: clemon79 on April 15, 2011, 07:27:19 PM
Of course, if you're REALLY good at the Wipeout game, there ought to be at least a couple answers that you're certain are correct anyway.  At that point, props to you if you can rethink your strategy in time to accommodate those automatic choices.
Yes, absolutely. My comment above was operating under a pure "hack the game" stance, with no concern or knowledge whatsoever about the question, just a guessing game of "which six boxes are the right ones."
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: wdm1219inpenna on April 27, 2011, 01:30:54 PM
Here's another tangent on that question...

If a computer program was used to randomize things, then it would seem logical to assume too that said program would randomly select 1 "orphan" car (the one that appeared only once).

On the other hand, if they were loaded by a human, did they randomly place a different "orphan" on the board each time?  In theory, if you had 8 cars, and you wanted to save on the budget, if done by humans, they could more often than not set it up so the most expensive car did not match on the board.

Very interesting question...I wonder who would know the definitive answers to these?
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: SRIV94 on April 27, 2011, 03:29:46 PM
On the other hand, if they were loaded by a human, did they randomly place a different "orphan" on the board each time?  In theory, if you had 8 cars, and you wanted to save on the budget, if done by humans, they could more often than not set it up so the most expensive car did not match on the board.
Methinks Standards & Practices would have something to say about that.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: JasonA1 on April 27, 2011, 03:36:19 PM
There's nothing inherently unfair about choosing to make the most expensive car the "dud." The contestant is not disadvantaged in playing the game they're trying to win. That says nothing about if it was done this way or not, but something to think about before playing the S&P card. In fact, if it were setup by human hands, you could play with the contestants' normal tendency in playing the game. Ergo, you could put expensive cars in the early group of numbers, so they were less likely to be the contestant's final match. That's like putting the big slips in Punch a Bunch in "weird" spots.

-Jason
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: SRIV94 on April 27, 2011, 03:53:33 PM
OK, maybe S&P wouldn't have something to say about that.  Although, to me gerrymandering is gerrymandering.  But that's why I'm not in the game show business.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: clemon79 on April 27, 2011, 05:00:40 PM
OK, maybe S&P wouldn't have something to say about that.  Although, to me gerrymandering is gerrymandering.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Gene Wood, at the top of the show, says "You could win one of these eight fabulous cars." And indeed, you can win one of them. Nobody tells you which one. (And in fact, by the rules of the game, it is true 100% of the time that you *can't* win one of them. They just don't talk about that.)

Now, is it disingenuous to make the eighth car a Ferrari Testarossa and then never make it a possible match? Probably. Does it make Gene or Alex's statements false, ever? In no way.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: Jeremy Nelson on April 27, 2011, 05:09:58 PM
I doubt they were handpicked. Kinda like the Super Mario Bros. 3 memory bonus game (http://"http://faqs.neoseeker.com/Games/NES/super_mario_brothers_3_card.png")--if you know where two of them are, you could know where they all are and pretty easily take NBC for a car. I doubt they would have made their bonus that beatable, especially post-Larsen.
As to the point about Toad's Matching Game, doesn't it take up a bunch less memory on the cart if you program just enough boards to keep things interesting, as opposed to having to seed the eighteen panels beforehand?
Yeah, especially for a minigame that shows up randomly on the board only about 5 times during the course of the game. And that's when you don't use the warp whistles and play most of the available stages. Might as well program six set boards, rather than program the system to randomly place the objects.
Title: classic concentration bonus round question
Post by: SRIV94 on April 27, 2011, 05:11:44 PM
Fair enough.  I withdraw the statement.

/Even though my foolishness will be on display for perpetuity.