The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Vahan_Nisanian on March 28, 2012, 09:55:11 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but when the episodes from the 1970s version were rerun, some of the music cues had to be replaced due to clearance issues. Were the reruns always like this, even when GSN started airing them during their inception, or was this something they were doing recently?
For those wondering how they accomplished this, they simply drowned out the original audio, by adding a second piece of music over it. You could still hear the original music, and Johnny Jacob's voice-over if you listen closely enough, but they were, of course, very hard to hear, because of the new music. They couldn't just remove the original music, because to my knowledge (again, to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong), videotaped shows do NOT have separate audio tracks (one for the dialogue, one for the effects, and one for the music) like filmed shows do (provided the original sound elements still exist). Instead, they are married to each other.
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They couldn't just remove the original music, because to my knowledge (again, to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong), videotaped shows do NOT have separate audio tracks (one for the dialogue, one for the effects, and one for the music) like filmed shows do (provided the original sound elements still exist). Instead, they are married to each other.
Given the time period, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the music was piped in to the studio rather than dubbed as well.
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GSN always did this, but oddly enough the first few episodes of each of the seasons didn't have this alteration. At the time it was explained that the owners of the music wanted too much money to clear it. Oddly enough, when GSN ran '80s versions of Barris shows (Treasure Hunt, for example) all the music was intact despite the fact a lot of it was the same music. I guess the contracts for the '80s shows were different.
From what I understand those issues were worked out in recent years, but if GSN is still airing the altered versions I guess they never got around to fixing the shows within their library.
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Now I don't mean to change the subject, but when I made this thread, I had WKRP in Cincinnati in mind. That show was one of, if not the first primetime sitcoms (or primetime dramas), to make frequent use of copyrighted music. Also, the show was videotaped, rather than filmed, because supposedly, it was cheaper to license songs that way. Recent syndication packages replaced some of the music, and not only that, but some of the dialogue was redubbed by sound-a-like actors, as well.
Yet according to Jaime Weinman's WKRP music changes guide (http://"http://www.oocities.org/wkrpvote/music.htm"), there were some scenes with both music/dialogue that had music replaced, yet the original, undubbed dialogue was still intact.
For example, here's a clip comparison from the first episode, where Johnny says "I almost forgot fellow babies... Booger!".
Original version (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKF8YxWWhI4")
New version (http://"http://www.hulu.com/watch/308/wkrp-in-cincinnati-pilot-part-1#x-0,vepisode,1,0") (dialogue at 15:21)
As you can see in the new version, even though the music has been changed, that's still Howard Hesseman's real voice saying that line.
Another comparison, this time from Johnny Comes Back.
Original version (http://"http://zvbxrpl.blogspot.com/2009/03/wkrp-episode-johnny-comes-back.html") (Dialogue in question starts at the 2:32 mark in the second video)
New version (http://"http://www.hulu.com/watch/314/wkrp-in-cincinnati-john-comes-back-part-2#x-0,vepisode,1,0") (Dialogue in question starts at 13:14)
As you can see in the new version even though Philip Charles MacKenzie's voice saying "Morning" was re-recorded by a voice-actor, that's still Howard's real voice when he says he's Heavy Early and asking the question "Is there anybody out there?". But even with that said, in the new version, that's so obviously not Howard's real voice at the very end of the episode, when he plays the song that was originally Layla by Derick and the Dominoes.
So my question is, if WKRP was a videotaped show, why is it that some scenes featuring both dialogue/music had the music replaced, but the dialogue left undubbed, while others of its kind had both music AND dialogue replaced?
Sorry if I didn't word my question properly enough.
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From what I can remember, I thought the voices were only changed/dubbed if a character referenced a song or its lyrics. For example in "The Americanization of Ivan", the character in question originally says to Bailey, "Hold me closer, Tiny Dancer".
That was later redubbed to say "Tidy dresser".
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So my question is, if WKRP was a videotaped show, why is it that some scenes featuring both dialogue/music had the music replaced, but the dialogue left undubbed, while others of its kind had both music AND dialogue replaced?
Sorry if I did word my question properly enough.
I'm not sure I follow the specificity of your question, but the concept boils down to a couple of basic things. Certain music had to go, period. So that music is removed. In the course of doing that, some dialogue has to come out too, and it's up to the editors to replace it as best they can. If they're lucky enough to have a clean dialogue track (which I imagine wouldn't be completely impossible in some cases), then they're all set. If not, and they can get Howard Hesseman to come in, even years later, and rerecord some lines, that'll work too. And if not, they get a voice actor to come in and do the best he can.
Simply put, they're going to do what they can with what they have. In the process of doing that, there are going to be lots of different solutions, so not all the edits will seem exactly the same to you.
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So my question is, if WKRP was a videotaped show, why is it that some scenes featuring both dialogue/music had the music replaced, but the dialogue left undubbed, while others of its kind had both music AND dialogue replaced?
Sorry if I did word my question properly enough.
I'm not sure I follow the specificity of your question, but the concept boils down to a couple of basic things. Certain music had to go, period. So that music is removed. In the course of doing that, some dialogue has to come out too, and it's up to the editors to replace it as best they can. If they're lucky enough to have a clean dialogue track (which I imagine wouldn't be completely impossible in some cases), then they're all set. If not, and they can get Howard Hesseman to come in, even years later, and rerecord some lines, that'll work too. And if not, they get a voice actor to come in and do the best he can.
Simply put, they're going to do what they can with what they have. In the process of doing that, there are going to be lots of different solutions, so not all the edits will seem exactly the same to you.
What I found that was a really odd edit in a particular episode from the 1st season (on DVD) was the episode where Sparky Anderson was a guest on their unsuccessful sports call-in show. When Hessman/Johnny Fever read the "phone number" listeners could call in on, it was 555-WKRP. In the "edited version", they dubbed out the "555" and Hessman is only heard saying "WKRP". And last time I checked, the 555 exchange is still not in wide-public use (hence why most TV shows and movies use the 555 exchange in all of their fake phone numbers).
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When Hessman/Johnny Fever read the "phone number" listeners could call in on, it was 555-WKRP. In the "edited version", they dubbed out the "555" and Hessman is only heard saying "WKRP". And last time I checked, the 555 exchange is still not in wide-public use (hence why most TV shows and movies use the 555 exchange in all of their fake phone numbers).
It's in enough use where the phone number governing body disallows using anything above 555-0199.
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When Hessman/Johnny Fever read the "phone number" listeners could call in on, it was 555-WKRP. In the "edited version", they dubbed out the "555" and Hessman is only heard saying "WKRP". And last time I checked, the 555 exchange is still not in wide-public use (hence why most TV shows and movies use the 555 exchange in all of their fake phone numbers).
It's in enough use where the phone number governing body disallows using anything above 555-0199.
Good grief. Why don't they just ban "Jenny" and "634-5789" from the radio waves while they're at it?
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TimK2003, I thought Sparky Anderson appeared in season 2 of that show, not season 1.
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Good grief. Why don't they just ban "Jenny" and "634-5789" from the radio waves while they're at it?
Or PEensylvania 6-5000, or PLaza 0-4433, or BEechwood 4-5789. Never really occurred to me how many song titles involve phone numbers.
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TimK2003, I thought Sparky Anderson appeared in season 2 of that show, not season 1.
According to the show guide, you're right. "Sparky", 12/24/79.
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Or PEensylvania 6-5000, or PLaza 0-4433, or BEechwood 4-5789. Never really occurred to me how many song titles involve phone numbers.
I had to look up the "plaza" one, which is a little embarrassing since I consider myself a Broadway fan.
Possibly worth noting that "PEnnsylvania 6-5000" was -- and is -- a real telephone number for the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York City.
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I hope this isn't hijacking the thread too much...
Now I don't mean to change the subject, but when I made this thread, I had WKRP in Cincinnati in mind. That show was one of, if not the first primetime sitcoms (or primetime dramas), to make frequent use of copyrighted music. Also, the show was videotaped, rather than filmed, because supposedly, it was cheaper to license songs that way.
I don't think using videotape over film had anything to do with the music, although I think WKRP was one of the first videotaped shows to have outdoor scenes videotaped rather than filmed.
What I found that was a really odd edit in a particular episode from the 1st season (on DVD) was the episode where Sparky Anderson was a guest on their unsuccessful sports call-in show. When Hessman/Johnny Fever read the "phone number" listeners could call in on, it was 555-WKRP. In the "edited version", they dubbed out the "555" and Hessman is only heard saying "WKRP". And last time I checked, the 555 exchange is still not in wide-public use (hence why most TV shows and movies use the 555 exchange in all of their fake phone numbers).
Originally, pretty much the only 555 number in use was 555-1212 (for directory assistance in that area code when calling from a different one). (There is a story about the first episode of Fernwood 2-Nite back in 1977 using a 555 number that turned out to belong to a charity of some sort.)
However, a few years ago, the phone companies decided that they needed more of the 555 numbers for certain reasons (mainly forwarding to different numbers - I know Vince McMahon once used them to hide the real phone numbers of people he was calling on the air live), so the set of numbers reserved for fictional use was changed to 555-0100 through 555-0199. It's quite possible that "555-WKRP" is a valid number in some places.
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Interesting question. I had a similar thought about The Joker's Wild's and Now You See It's themes when they recently aired on GSN. The first time I heard the alternate NYSI theme used throught an episode (like turning the board and other bumpers) was during their recent run a few years back. I thought there might be a music clearance issue. I later got some information about why it was used and how "Chump Change" was reused more often again. The same could be said when I heard the alternate TJW theme instead of "The Savers."
This thread also makes me wonder about the Paul Rodriguez version, since, as I type this reply, his version was not rerun on GSN. I know his and the 1996 Bullard versions were not that great in the first place to be rerun at all; it's more about if "Book of Love" could be allowed to play again.
Just some thoughts as I read this thread.
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is thread also makes me wonder about the Paul Rodriguez version, since, as I type this reply, his version was not rerun on GSN. I know his and the 1996 Bullard versions were not that great in the first place to be rerun at all; it's more about if "Book of Love" could be allowed to play again.
First off, Bullard did the "Card Sharks: Epic Fail" remake and not "The Newlywed Game: Epic Fail" version on Fox. (Gary Kroeger did TNG:EF).
And you answered your own question as to why the Rodriguez and Kroeger versions were never aired on GSN -- they were both so far off from the traditional Newlywed Game format.
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Kroeger's "Newlywed" was syndicated, but for some reason I thought GSN aired it in the late-90s.
Whammy: Bullard's "Card Sharks" aired in 2001, not 96.
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Kroeger's "Newlywed" was syndicated, but for some reason I thought GSN aired it in the late-90s.
I think you're onto something...didn't GSN simulcast both TDG and TNG?
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Kroeger's "Newlywed" was syndicated, but for some reason I thought GSN aired it in the late-90s.
I think you're onto something...didn't GSN simulcast both TDG and TNG?
They did...I remember this being a topic at my GSC back in '97 because I think Bob Eubanks was coming back to host TNG?
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For some reason, I was under the Impression that "WKRP" was able to use popular songs without clearance by playing only a few seconds of each. (Apparently, that's not the case.)
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For some reason, I was under the Impression that "WKRP" was able to use popular songs without clearance by playing only a few seconds of each. (Apparently, that's not the case.)
In a a somewhat related topic (and I learned this courtesy of a Simpsons DVD commentary), A TV show can get away with paying song royalties if only the first two lines of the tune were sung. Not sure if they we're blowing smoke, though.
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Ask the estate of George Harrison about how three notes made plagiarism worth more than a doo-lang, doo-lang.
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Ask the estate of George Harrison about how three notes made plagiarism worth more than a doo-lang, doo-lang.
I still remember the first time I heard My Sweet Lord and thought it sounded an awful lot like He's So Fine.