The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: aaron sica on June 20, 2023, 10:20:27 AM
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I've recently seen the new animated Spider-Man movie and also, "The Flash", in which alternate realities play a huge part. In the alternate reality of "The Flash", for example, it was Eric Stoltz who was Marty McFly and not Michael J. Fox.
Chris C. mentioned in another thread how Twenty One was passed on and Child's Play went to series instead.
What would have happened had Twenty One made it to series? How long would it have lasted?
What other alternate realities could exist in our world of game shows, and what might have happened as a result?
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I don’t think 21 does any better, honestly. I wasn’t too blown away by the pilot and it felt like audiences didn’t appreciate hard trivia shows again until J! came back a couple years later.
I do wonder what if the games from fall 1990 lasted a little longer? Not that TJW, TTD, or Trump Card set the world on fire, but if they last until about 1993, does the genre come to as much of a standstill in the mid-90s?
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I do wonder what if the games from fall 1990 lasted a little longer? Not that TJW, TTD, or Trump Card set the world on fire, but if they last until about 1993, does the genre come to as much of a standstill in the mid-90s?
Along those same lines, even though it's not one of the syndicated fall 1990 games, that comment caused me to wonder what would have happened if Ross Shafer's comment on the last MG90 about "another channel, another time" had come to pass. It's rumored that was CBS. If that were the case, I could see the "Designing Women" reruns being taken off to make room.
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I definitely believe Break the Bank would've had a decent daytime run had it not been for that soap expansion.
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I definitely believe Break the Bank would've had a decent daytime run had it not been for that soap expansion.
Absolutely. IIRC, its ratings were not bad.
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I definitely believe Break the Bank would've had a decent daytime run had it not been for that soap expansion.
I think BTB deserved better than it got, but with nine celebs it must have been a relatively expensive show to do.
Tic Tac Dough, Jeopardy! (1978), Double Dare, Trivia Trap and even Whew! all flopped in daytime. TTD and J! did a lot better in prime access. I think a hard Q&A quiz like Twenty One would have flopped in daytime as well. Unrigged, Twenty One was a dull show by Dan Enright's own account, c.f. the PBS doc, and the 2000 prime-time version didn't set the world on fire. Blockbusters had some success in daytime but it had the game of hex and contestants were given the benefit of the initial letter of the answer. PYL had multiple-choice Q&A and the material didn't exactly test the intellect.
When I mull over game show formats I eschew strictly Q&A formats, figuring J! has a lock on that and audiences may burn out on Q&A. Jay Wolpert gets an "A" for effort in exploring fresh formats but his shows were a little too "out there".
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To further underline the current-ness of this topic, I've been led to wonder recently what happened were there no Writers Strikes. I don't think Temptation would've been presented as it was if at all if the previous strike hadn't happened (MNTV probably lives a bit longer as a channel w/ original programming too). The recent ESPN documentary also heavily implies that American Gladiators only made it to air because of a strike.
What a different world we could live in if companies properly compensated their workforce.
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Another two that cross my mind occasionally. I might be getting a little creative here. :P
Ever since the late-70s, Merv wanted a syndicated version of Wheel. IIRC, he almost got 20th Century Fox to distribute the show in 1980, and I'm guessing it would've been a 20CF companion to Dance Fever. That being said, I don't think it becomes the massive hit it became in '83 and I predict it gets the axe around the same time as Dance Fever.
In this alternate universe I see it getting a short-lived reboot in the mid-90s, then another one in the late-90s/early-2000s that runs to this day. Since evening Wheel doesn't give Feud a run for the money, Dawson goes a couple more years on syndicated Feud and passes off the torch to Ray Combs in '88. The ABC version still goes off the air in '85. Oh, and since Wheel went off the air around '87 Pat Sajak gets a CBS gig, but in 1993. Letterman replaces Carson in '92 and Jay Leno gets something in syndication.
The other one is Dean Goss's LMAD continuing into '86, and doing just well enough to make it to '87-'88 before finally getting canceled.
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Along those same lines, even though it's not one of the syndicated fall 1990 games, that comment caused me to wonder what would have happened if Ross Shafer's comment on the last MG90 about "another channel, another time" had come to pass. It's rumored that was CBS. If that were the case, I could see the "Designing Women" reruns being taken off to make room.
I asked Bob Boden if there was anything in the works for MG90 post-cancellation. He said there were no plans.
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I think the major lynchpin for us would have to be if Chief Justice Earl Warren had ruled the opposite way in 1954, finding that "giveaway shows" constituted gambling and were therefore not allowed on the airwaves.
Given the trajectory of media and society, it seems almost inevitable that they would've been allowed on the air at some point anyway. But when would that have happened? How would long-running favorites like TPiR and Wheel have developed--if they even existed at all? Would the scandals still have occurred at some point?
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So, in all the years that we've been tape trading, have you noticed that a TON of unsold pilots were shot in 1990?
Michael Brockman was in charge of ABC at that point and he made it known that he wanted to dump Home and make 10:30 am-12:30 pm a two-hour block of game shows. A bunch of those 1990 pilots were shot for ABC's consideration. Brockman was shown the door right before he brought this to fruition. Considering that the network game shows were starting to die at this point, I'm curious to know what would have happened if ABC had unleashed four new game shows in the fall of 1990. No difference? Ratings dilution because of all the syndicated game shows along with the ABC block? A few hits are in there and the life of network games gets extended a little bit?
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Michael Brockman was in charge of ABC at that point and he made it known that he wanted to dump Home and make 10:30 am-12:30 pm a two-hour block of game shows.
I think Michael Brockman would have faced some strong headwinds from affiliates not from putting game shows on, but for wanting to take back 10:30 eastern. Pretty much since ABC's beginnings, 10AM to 11AM was for the local affiliates. Considering that a lot of the popular syndicated daytime programming was one hour instead of 30 minutes, I don't think he would have won that battle.
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Imagine if both Pyramid and CS are cancelled the same day and Top Secret premiered the same day as Feud.. Both Independence Day 1988.
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I think the major lynchpin for us would have to be if Chief Justice Earl Warren had ruled the opposite way in 1954, finding that "giveaway shows" constituted gambling and were therefore not allowed on the airwaves.
Given the trajectory of media and society, it seems almost inevitable that they would've been allowed on the air at some point anyway. But when would that have happened? How would long-running favorites like TPiR and Wheel have developed--if they even existed at all? Would the scandals still have occurred at some point?
I think you may have some weird instances like what Britain did for Wheel and Price, but I think quiz shows and other skill-based games would still happen unaltered. Otherwise, you're saying sports like golf or tennis could not be televised because there's a prize for the winner.
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Another thought exercise:
Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin. Though the format was fundamentally flawed, Dick didn't help. He was better in office run-thrus but once he got into the studio he was never smooth at it. He was always a bit awkward.
I'm not sure exactly when Brockman departed NBC, but even though he was a client of the company there were those in the office who didn't hold him in particularly high regard. In watching his interview, the games he plays with his fingers remind me of the Simpsons' Mr. Burns character.
By the time we brought up Mindreaders in 1979, ISTR we were dealing with Noreen Conlin.
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I'm not sure exactly when Brockman departed NBC.
Fall of 1980. The David Letterman Show was 100% a Fred Silverman baby, and when it failed, Brockman got shoved HARD under that bus.
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On that front, what happens if Wheel gets the boot and not Chain Reaction, does NBC move CR to after Letterman?
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So, in all the years that we've been tape trading, have you noticed that a TON of unsold pilots were shot in 1990?
Michael Brockman was in charge of ABC at that point and he made it known that he wanted to dump Home and make 10:30 am-12:30 pm a two-hour block of game shows. A bunch of those 1990 pilots were shot for ABC's consideration. Brockman was shown the door right before he brought this to fruition. Considering that the network game shows were starting to die at this point, I'm curious to know what would have happened if ABC had unleashed four new game shows in the fall of 1990. No difference? Ratings dilution because of all the syndicated game shows along with the ABC block? A few hits are in there and the life of network games gets extended a little bit?
IMO, none of those pilots I've seen (TKO, Body Talk, Gambit, Match Game) were particularly strong so I believe none of them would've lasted very long even if they made air; Match Game did but it struggled the entire time it was on. But Brockman himself says that he encountered HEAVY pushback from ABC execs and affiliates from wanting to give game shows another go. They seemed to resign themselves to nothing working before the soaps and him expending so much energy toward investing money into the genre probably hastened his demise.
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Brockman himself says that he encountered HEAVY pushback from ABC execs and affiliates from wanting to give game shows another go. They seemed to resign themselves to nothing working before the soaps and him expending so much energy toward investing money into the genre probably hastened his demise.
Little wonder. Daytime game shows were always dogged by undesirable demos.
The failed pilot "On a Roll" supports the notion that Goodson was running on fumes by then. How about another revival of To Tell the Truth?
Add to that "Star Words" which had a glaring problem in judging right out of the gate. Contestant responds with "another woman" and it is deemed not to match "infidelity" and right away Patty Duke Astin voices her objection which is left in the tape, leaving Nipsey to tap dance and explain it away with a six-egg omelette on his face.
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My favorite parts of Star Words were:
1) The dance segments
2) The Tootsie Walking Girl theme
3) Watching the set pieces glide in
My partner says On a Roll felt like a SNL parody of Wheel of Fortune.
In an alternate reality:
Match Game and Tattletales remain at 3:30pm/4:00pm and run through 1982 when they're finally cancelled. There is no Tattletales v2, and no syndicated Match Game.
Hollywood Squares remains at 11:30am and runs through 1982 when it's finally cancelled. There is no syndicated Hollywood Squares
MG/HS hour still happens a few months later because NBC.
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Another thought exercise:
Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin. Though the format was fundamentally flawed, Dick didn't help. He was better in office run-thrus but once he got into the studio he was never smooth at it. He was always a bit awkward.
100% agreed. On several occasions, Dick had that "deer in the headlights" look. He did move the game along, but he was not as polished as Cullen, Rayburn etc, I do believe The Cheap Show was his only previous hosting job. He was fine on that, but not here.
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Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin.
I could, but then we'd still be asking a seasoned jockey to ride a mule to the Kentucky Derby ;)
Oh, and since Wheel went off the air around '87 Pat Sajak gets a CBS gig, but in 1993. Letterman replaces Carson in '92 and Jay Leno gets something in syndication.
My curiousness lies in what Pat Sajak does for 5 years to end up with a late night gig! Also, if Jay Leno still has Helen Kushnick in your alternate reality, I don't see a way in which he doesn't end up with that job.
I've got one:
The staff of Family Feud is so fed up with Richard's attitude that they refuse to return to work until he's let go. The work stoppage is leaked to the press, and with mounting pressure from all sides, Goodson removes Dawson as host in 1981. With Alex Trebek already on NBC daytime, Geoff Edwards is hired as his replacement.
ABC, not wanting to lose their star talent, signs Dawson to a network deal. The relationship is buddy-buddy at first. Dawson trashes Family Feud and Geoff in a magazine feature, which blows over, but then he trashes ABC and his contract in 1982. After some middling primetime specials in 82 and 83, the network determines he's not in their future plans and he's bought out by 1984.
With a breath of fresh air in the studio, Geoff begins his tenure in 1981. Ratings see a noticeable boost thanks to the public's curiosity but aren't sustainable. Wheel still comes in and eats Feud's lunch, but instead of the Dawson series finale eulogy, it's a relatively happy affair with the staff and crew joining Geoff on stage during the final segment.
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I'll throw a "what if" into the mix:
What if LMAD never bolted to ABC in the late 60s? The only real game shows ABC had around then were mostly Barris shows.
Would NBC have given Monty a shot at a syndicated nighttime version of the show?
Would LMAD have been such a lasting game show over the decades, because it seems the show really took off after going to ABC.
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100% agreed. On several occasions, Dick had that "deer in the headlights" look. He did move the game along, but he was not as polished as Cullen, Rayburn etc, I do believe The Cheap Show was his only previous hosting job. He was fine on that, but not here.
ISTR on Cheap Show he had an "assistant" to help him with the format, and we took that into account when considering him for Mindreaders. As I say, he was better and more at ease in the office and went "deer in the headlights" in the studio.
After thinking it over, I'd like to see how Dick Gautier would have done with a game show. Also Nipsey and Greg Morris would have been worthy of consideration. I liked Nipsey as an emcee and he had good command of the format.
The auditionee would be sent a script to study, then do one or more run-thrus in the office for the producers. Later, Mr. Goodson would see it and if Goodson approved, "the network", e.g. Mike Brockman, would be invited over to see it.
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This came up in our Twitch chat the other night. Let's suppose Super Password was still doing well for NBC and didn't get cancelled in 1989. Who would have taken over the show when Bert's health took a decline for following year?
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This came up in our Twitch chat the other night. Let's suppose Super Password was still doing well for NBC and didn't get cancelled in 1989. Who would have taken over the show when Bert's health took a decline for following year?
Scrabble would have been cancelled around this point; Chuck Woolery?
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This came up in our Twitch chat the other night. Let's suppose Super Password was still doing well for NBC and didn't get cancelled in 1989. Who would have taken over the show when Bert's health took a decline for following year?
Vicki Lawrence!
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This came up in our Twitch chat the other night. Let's suppose Super Password was still doing well for NBC and didn't get cancelled in 1989. Who would have taken over the show when Bert's health took a decline for following year?
Vicki Lawrence!
Did Tom Kennedy officially "retire" from the business after Wordplay ended? I would think he would have been the top contender, as he had experience with the format, more or less.
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This came up in our Twitch chat the other night. Let's suppose Super Password was still doing well for NBC and didn't get cancelled in 1989. Who would have taken over the show when Bert's health took a decline for following year?
Vicki Lawrence!
Did Tom Kennedy officially "retire" from the business after Wordplay ended? I would think he would have been the top contender, as he had experience with the format, more or less.
Nope, another viable option. He was devising new formats and even hosted more unsold pilots; Star Play was one from 1989, for example. Tom.certainly had the experience, but I'd also think Vicki's Emmy-nominated performance on WLoD would also have considerable weight. Plus we know they wanted her helming a show since they chose her for Body Talk.
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The failed pilot "On a Roll" supports the notion that Goodson was running on fumes by then. How about another revival of To Tell the Truth?
On a Roll was WOF using dice instead of a wheel. And TTTT would return in 1990, and twice after that.
The one pilot Goodson did circa 1988 that I really liked was Oddball, which morphed into the game Just One, which I have. I thought Jamie Farr was a decent host that would have gotten better with time.
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On a Roll was WOF using dice instead of a wheel.
"On a Roll" was an amalgam of Number Please and High Rollers.
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In an alternate reality:
Match Game and Tattletales remain at 3:30pm/4:00pm and run through 1982 when they're finally cancelled. There is no Tattletales v2, and no syndicated Match Game.
Hollywood Squares remains at 11:30am and runs through 1982 when it's finally cancelled. There is no syndicated Hollywood Squares
MG/HS hour still happens a few months later because NBC.
That's in interesting one. From what I've read over the years, it's widely believed Match Game's ratings started to fall quite swiftly after its ill-fated move to 11AM and the quick move back to afternoons couldn't stop the decline.
I've posted on here before that Match Game looked a bit tired to me by '78, but if it had stayed in the 3:30 time slot (rather than 4, which a lot of affiliates wouldn't clear live) how much longer could it have run? Most affiliates probably would have stayed with it which probably would have helped a great deal in the ratings. Early '80s sounds about right...and maybe Gene wouldn't have been so bitter about it.
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A glaring fault with On a Roll is the penalty for rolling a double. There is no knife edge to it. Sooner or later a double is going to come up. On a Roll offers the player no opportunity to make a strategic decision as to whether or not to roll.
Compare this to Card Sharks. The player makes a strategic decision when he calls higher/lower. This is amplified in the end game when the player makes his bet.
I came up with an idea a long time ago where a player would make a strategic decision which could result in a win or a loss. This gave it a "knife edge" as Frank Wayne used to call it.
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A glaring fault with On a Roll is the penalty for rolling a double. There is no knife edge to it. Sooner or later a double is going to come up. On a Roll offers the player no opportunity to make a strategic decision as to whether or not to roll.
It may not have come up in the pilot you watched, but in at least one of them, David would bring up the option to pass the dice, but only after numbers became impossible to knock off. (If you rolled a 5 and a 6, and there was no 11 or 5 on the board, you got the 6, and the 5 was wasted.) It isn't the great tense decision offered by better game shows, but On a Roll wasn't one of the better game shows.
-Jason
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Were On A Roll, TKO and Star Words all commissioned by CBS?
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Were On A Roll, TKO and Star Words all commissioned by CBS?
Per Mike Burger (https://www.usgameshows.net/x.php?show=TKO&sort=0), "TKO" was for ABC (but shot at TV City).
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On a Roll wasn't one of the better game shows.
As I say, Goodson was running on fumes by then.
Number Please had a guy on vibraphone who liked to improvise, more interesting than the same old chime from the TV City sound-effects department, and a board which went "clunk". I was in kindergarten when Number Please was on ABC. It was my Sesame Street. Bud Collyer was always glad to see me.
I found this. It's nice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVL_pdrqX0A
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Oh, and since Wheel went off the air around '87 Pat Sajak gets a CBS gig, but in 1993. Letterman replaces Carson in '92 and Jay Leno gets something in syndication.
My curiousness lies in what Pat Sajak does for 5 years to end up with a late night gig! Also, if Jay Leno still has Helen Kushnick in your alternate reality, I don't see a way in which he doesn't end up with that job.
IIRC he did a primetime special for NBC with Jack Paar around 1987. I'm thinking a few primetime specials for CBS here and there, just to keep his name out there and show his talk show chops. A Tournament of Roses parade or two. Maybe even another game show in the interim.
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Since we’re talking about other worlds here:
NBC expands “Another World” to an hour in 1975….but it flops, goes back to 30 minutes, and no other soap is willing to touch the 60-minute format.
Network daytime afternoons retain their flexibility, and new shows, including games, can become breakout hits at 2:00 or 3:30. The period from 1976 onward sees a greater number of daytime games (and better-rated ones) than we actually got, and networks keep faith in the genre for longer than was really the case.
TPIR can keep its hourlong format. (Oh, and come 1986, Goodson keeps Breslow over Barker. Tom Kennedy gets the daytime show, clicks with viewers, and there are no lawsuits involving the models.)
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A few of mines
Joe Namath hosts Family Feud . Ray Combs and Jay Leno end up taking turns guest hosting The Tonight Show. Jay Leno of-course gets the Tonight gig and David Letterman leaves for Cbs and Ray Combs take over Late Night and enjoy a 20 year run.
Dennis James host Daytime Price and Barker hosts the night time version. Dennis retires in the 80s and Bob Barker takes over the daytime show.
I remember reading Ellen Degeneres was being considered for the Syndicated version of Weakest Link. She hosts the syndicated version and would her talk show ever happen?
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This is not my original thought. Somebody in our community suggested it either on Facebook or on this board somewhere. I'd credit them if I could find it. But I thought it was an interesting take.
If Woolery never leaves Wheel...
- Does the daytime version last long enough and remain popular enough for the syndicated nighttime version to come along?
- If syndicated Wheel never happens, does Kingworld expand like it did in the 80s?
- If Kingworld never expands, does The Oprah Winfrey Show ever make it out of Chicago?
- If Oprah Winfrey never becomes the huge name she did, does Barack Obama still win the presidency in 2008?
Several of these assumptions are probably stretches, but it's a delicious irony anyway.
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This is not my original thought. Somebody in our community suggested it either on Facebook or on this board somewhere. I'd credit them if I could find it. But I thought it was an interesting take.
If Woolery never leaves Wheel...
- Does the daytime version last long enough and remain popular enough for the syndicated nighttime version to come along?
- If syndicated Wheel never happens, does Kingworld expand like it did in the 80s?
- If Kingworld never expands, does The Oprah Winfrey Show ever make it out of Chicago?
- If Oprah Winfrey never becomes the huge name she did, does Barack Obama still win the presidency in 2008?
Several of these assumptions are probably stretches, but it's a delicious irony anyway.
In other words, Woolery leaving Wheel could have indirectly caused Obama to become President?
I bet Chuck would love to hear that.
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Were On A Roll, TKO and Star Words all commissioned by CBS?
Per Mike Burger (https://www.usgameshows.net/x.php?show=TKO&sort=0), "TKO" was for ABC (but shot at TV City).
I enjoyed TKO. What if ABC puts that on instead of MG '90? Would it have lasted longer?
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Since we’re talking about other worlds here:
NBC expands “Another World” to an hour in 1975….but it flops, goes back to 30 minutes, and no other soap is willing to touch the 60-minute format.
Network daytime afternoons retain their flexibility, and new shows, including games, can become breakout hits at 2:00 or 3:30. The period from 1976 onward sees a greater number of daytime games (and better-rated ones) than we actually got, and networks keep faith in the genre for longer than was really the case.
TPIR can keep its hourlong format. (Oh, and come 1986, Goodson keeps Breslow over Barker. Tom Kennedy gets the daytime show, clicks with viewers, and there are no lawsuits involving the models.)
If AW flops as an hour, maybe NBC pairs it with another game like they did in the 60s. LMAD switches back to NBC in 75 to pair up with AW and gives Guiding Light a run for its money in the 80s.
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So, in all the years that we've been tape trading, have you noticed that a TON of unsold pilots were shot in 1990?
Michael Brockman was in charge of ABC at that point and he made it known that he wanted to dump Home and make 10:30 am-12:30 pm a two-hour block of game shows. A bunch of those 1990 pilots were shot for ABC's consideration. Brockman was shown the door right before he brought this to fruition. Considering that the network game shows were starting to die at this point, I'm curious to know what would have happened if ABC had unleashed four new game shows in the fall of 1990. No difference? Ratings dilution because of all the syndicated game shows along with the ABC block? A few hits are in there and the life of network games gets extended a little bit?
IMO, none of those pilots I've seen (TKO, Body Talk, Gambit, Match Game) were particularly strong so I believe none of them would've lasted very long even if they made air; Match Game did but it struggled the entire time it was on. But Brockman himself says that he encountered HEAVY pushback from ABC execs and affiliates from wanting to give game shows another go. They seemed to resign themselves to nothing working before the soaps and him expending so much energy toward investing money into the genre probably hastened his demise.
Also they used The Finish Line and [Suit Yourself
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I enjoyed TKO. What if ABC puts that on instead of MG '90? Would it have lasted longer?
With that noon slot, I don't think that would have made a difference.
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Another thought exercise:
Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin.
Interesting. With that being said, when Mindreaders was being created, were any other candidates given consideration? Or a run-through?
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Adam: ISTR Noreen Conlin was around for Puzzlers in Q1 1980. Brockman could be off by a year in his chronology and departed NBC in 1979, unless they were keeping him on mothballs until 1980.
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Another thought exercise:
Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin.
Interesting. With that being said, when Mindreaders was being created, were any other candidates given consideration? Or a run-through?
Now I have to activate some dormant brain cells. Bobby Sherman may have emceed a run-thru or two just to test the format, not being considered for air. The only celeb we tested was Dick Martin.
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There's a recorded office runthrough out and about hosted by Dick, with Dolly Martin and Bill Cullen as the celebrities
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There's a recorded office runthrough out and about hosted by Dick, with Dolly Martin and Bill Cullen as the celebrities
What did you think of Dick as emcee?
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I definitely believe Break the Bank would've had a decent daytime run had it not been for that soap expansion.
How about this: in order to make way for the expanded soaps, Break the Bank is moved from 2:30 to 12 noon (which is probably what SHOULD HAVE happened). Hot Seat never gets past pilot stage. Despite more and more affiliates airing noon news over the network offering, Break the Bank gets good enough ratings to hang around for a year or so. That means we probably don't get The Don Ho Show and maybe even Second Chance. What does that mean for the eventual Press Your Luck?
It's interesting to play this game isn't it?!
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There's a recorded office runthrough out and about hosted by Dick, with Dolly Martin and Bill Cullen as the celebrities
What did you think of Dick as emcee?
I mostly agree with your assessment. He shined when he could adlib with the contestants and celebrities as they came up with their answers. He was frequently awkward managing the mechanics of the show and staying on script. That was the case in the runthrough as well.
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This is not my original thought. Somebody in our community suggested it either on Facebook or on this board somewhere. I'd credit them if I could find it. But I thought it was an interesting take.
If Woolery never leaves Wheel...
- Does the daytime version last long enough and remain popular enough for the syndicated nighttime version to come along?
- If syndicated Wheel never happens, does Kingworld expand like it did in the 80s?
- If Kingworld never expands, does The Oprah Winfrey Show ever make it out of Chicago?
- If Oprah Winfrey never becomes the huge name she did, does Barack Obama still win the presidency in 2008?
Several of these assumptions are probably stretches, but it's a delicious irony anyway.
I'll stick around 1982 with this: Pat wins the war of wills with Merv over who would replace Susan Stafford and we get Vicki McCarty as letter turner. Given her trajectory before and since, does she last 42 years or does she leave by the late 80's or early 90s? Does Wheel even last to the present day in this Vanna-less timeline?
Also pertaining to 1982 and NBC, Adam's Game Shows FAQ mentioned that NBC had taken a swing to bring $25K Pyramid to their schedule only for CBS to give Bob Stewart a spot on the schedule without having to shoot a pilot as they needed a companion for Child's Play. How would Pyramid have fared on an NBC whose daytime schedule was a hot mess at that point? Does it last as long as it did on CBS and spawn $100K in syndication by 1985?
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I think if NBC puts Pyramid in some 90-minute block with $ale and Wheel from either 10-11:30 or 10:30-noon, it gets the same six-year run.
I'd avoid the noon slot.
EDIT: I’m not good at math.
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If Woolery never leaves Wheel...
- Does the daytime version last long enough and remain popular enough for the syndicated nighttime version to come along?
- If syndicated Wheel never happens, does Kingworld expand like it did in the 80s?
- If Kingworld never expands, does The Oprah Winfrey Show ever make it out of Chicago?
- If Oprah Winfrey never becomes the huge name she did, does Barack Obama still win the presidency in 2008?
I was going down this road until I realized it was probably short-sighted of me to think Wheel would never go into syndication with Chuck at the helm. He made it 6 years as a rookie host on a show that wasn't a revival. After Wheel, he was part of 3 shows that had a healthy run: Scrabble, Love Connection and Lingo. In my opinion, at least, I think this hypothetical would stop at step 1, because a nighttime show with Chuck could have been a great bet -- probably more so than with Pat, even.
Whether or not Wheel becomes a phenomenon without the enigmatic qualities of Vanna is another question.
-Jason
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Whether or not Wheel becomes a phenomenon without the enigmatic qualities of Vanna is another question.
That might have been part of the original thread actually. If Chuck stays, Susan probably stays, and we don't get Vanna.
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This came up in our Twitch chat the other night. Let's suppose Super Password was still doing well for NBC and didn't get cancelled in 1989. Who would have taken over the show when Bert's health took a decline for following year?
Vicki Lawrence!
It’s got to be either her or Jamie Farr. He’d had a couple pilots under his belt, but she’s the better option.
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How about this: in order to make way for the expanded soaps, Break the Bank is moved from 2:30 to 12 noon (which is probably what SHOULD HAVE happened). Hot Seat never gets past pilot stage. Despite more and more affiliates airing noon news over the network offering, Break the Bank gets good enough ratings to hang around for a year or so. That means we probably don't get The Don Ho Show and maybe even Second Chance. What does that mean for the eventual Press Your Luck?
It's interesting to play this game isn't it?!
If Goodson had The Better Sex ready to go in the spring instead of letting it bake for a few more months, Second Chance never sees the light of day on TV. Interesting indeed.
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Another thought exercise:
Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin. Though the format was fundamentally flawed, Dick didn't help. He was better in office run-thrus but once he got into the studio he was never smooth at it. He was always a bit awkward.
I'm not sure exactly when Brockman departed NBC, but even though he was a client of the company there were those in the office who didn't hold him in particularly high regard. In watching his interview, the games he plays with his fingers remind me of the Simpsons' Mr. Burns character.
By the time we brought up Mindreaders in 1979, ISTR we were dealing with Noreen Conlin.
Who wasn't busy? Dan Rowan? Lloyd Thaxton?
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Another thought exercise:
Pick a better emcee for Mindreaders than Dick Martin. Though the format was fundamentally flawed, Dick didn't help. He was better in office run-thrus but once he got into the studio he was never smooth at it. He was always a bit awkward.
I'm not sure exactly when Brockman departed NBC, but even though he was a client of the company there were those in the office who didn't hold him in particularly high regard. In watching his interview, the games he plays with his fingers remind me of the Simpsons' Mr. Burns character.
By the time we brought up Mindreaders in 1979, ISTR we were dealing with Noreen Conlin.
Who wasn't busy? Dan Rowan? Lloyd Thaxton?
Not sure about Dan Rowan (or his hosting abilities)...but Lloyd Thaxton was producing "Consumer Buyline" for NBC, which a year later became "Fight Back! With David Horowitz".
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If Goodson had The Better Sex ready to go in the spring instead of letting it bake for a few more months, Second Chance never sees the light of day on TV. Interesting indeed.
And then Jim Peck would have to wait three years for his next game show gig. The 1978 You Don't Say was hosted by Mr. Peck, as some of us recall.
Cordially,
Tammy
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Not sure about Dan Rowan (or his hosting abilities)...
Dan would have hosted Hollywood Squares if Peter Marshall had turned it down. That's what the producers told him and why Peter took the job. He wasn't a fan of Dan.
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So if Dan hosted HS, then Laugh-In would've had different hosts, because there wouldn't have been Rowan and Martin. I believe once Laugh-In was cancelled, it was also the end of Rowan and Martin. Dick would make a number of game show appearances and Dan basically faded away. Based on the pilot, HQ certainly had the star power, so the writing would've been good, but who knows if Rowan would've had the same appeal as host over Peter Marshall.
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Mine has always been who wound have taken over Price is Right if Bob retired after 25 or 30 years. Maybe Bob Goen in 1997? Todd Newton in 2003?
In this alternate universe I see it getting a short-lived reboot in the mid-90s, then another one in the late-90s/early-2000s that runs to this day. Since evening Wheel doesn't give Feud a run for the money, Dawson goes a couple more years on syndicated Feud and passes off the torch to Ray Combs in '88. The ABC version still goes off the air in '85. Oh, and since Wheel went off the air around '87 Pat Sajak gets a CBS gig, but in 1993. Letterman replaces Carson in '92 and Jay Leno gets something in syndication.
I would argue in this scenario Pat get CBS Feud instead of Ray Combs, then potentially the Late Show in 93 when the market implodes.
(and maybe Pyramid lives longer than 1988...)
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Mine has always been who wound have taken over Price is Right if Bob retired after 25 or 30 years. Maybe Bob Goen in 1997? Todd Newton in 2003?
Either Bob Goen or if he did not get fired from Feud and the whole unraveling how about Ray Combs?
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Who wasn't busy? Dan Rowan? Lloyd Thaxton?
I'm going to go to game show hades for this take, but wouldn't Bill Cullen and Jack Narz have been available? Bill was between Love Experts and Chain Reaction and while Jack was done hosting he wasn't yet announcer for Beat the Clock. As much as this creates a "great host, awful show" situation both would've been an improvement over Dick Martin.
Going outside the list of known Goodson-Todman names, I'd toss Geoff Edwards in there as well. Goodson did want him for Family Feud and he wasn't doing anything TV wise at that point and had one foot out the door radio wise. That might have complicated things with Play the Percentages given the disdain Goodson had for Dan Enright.
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A very recent one keeps entering my mind.
I was always of the thought that they rushed into the 2020 Jeopardy GOAT special so they could get that in while Alex Trebek was in good enough health to do it. Little did they know they got that in just in time for a completely different reason.
I always wondered - taking what happened a few weeks after the tournament out of the equation - what would have happened if Alex was in good health. I think that this tournament would’ve had some more buzz and would’ve been scheduled as either part of the first-run summer syndicated block or (more likely) part of ABC’s Summer Fun & Games block.
I think it would’ve unfolded in the exact same manner that it did and would’ve had the same strong viewership as what they actually got. Then Alex could get ready for the next season. If only…
The Inquisitive One
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Mine has always been who wound have taken over Price is Right if Bob retired after 25 or 30 years. Maybe Bob Goen in 1997? Todd Newton in 2003?
If Bob Retired in 1997 Doug Davidson could replace him since he hosted 1994 version and it would probably be an easier transition. Todd Newton in 2003 with Randy West as announcer.
I wonder if LMAD would've been a thing in 2009.
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I hope you'll forgive the bump of an old thread, but it's a fun topic. Rereading the first page with speculation about the Twenty One pilot reminds me of an alternate universe scenario I've brought up in private conversation a few times.
It's 2000, and Twenty One is on NBC, trying its best to compete with Millionaire and Greed. Along comes a *really* great quizzer who goes on a Ken Jennings-like run. (Heck, it could even *be* Ken Jennings.) This contestant manages to win 20 or 30 games, amassing an eight-figure payday.
Does America become captivated with this champion not unlike they were with Charles Van Doren? Do the inevitable parallels to Van Doren cause viewers to question whether or not this version is rigged as well? Is all the mystique enough to even push Twenty One ahead of Millionaire in the ratings?
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I'd say the contestant gets a level of publicity not unlike what John Carpenter got, but given that by that point the viewing landscape was more fractured than it had been in the 50s (and beginning to develop into what we see today) I don't think he necessarily attains a Van Doren-level of fame. Maybe something closer to what James Holzhauer would eventually get.
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Going outside the list of known Goodson-Todman names, I'd toss Geoff Edwards in there as well. Goodson did want him for Family Feud and he wasn't doing anything TV wise at that point and had one foot out the door radio wise. That might have complicated things with Play the Percentages given the disdain Goodson had for Dan Enright.
It's definitely a "what if" I'd love to have seen, though there's a part of the Geoff-Edwards-could-have-had-Family-Feud story that's never made sense to me. He never appeared, before or after Feud launched, on anything for Goodson-Todman. Why would Goodson have been so interested in someone who had never worked for him and only for his competitors? If he liked him so much, why did he never get considered for anything else Goodson ever did? Was the one "no" to the Feud pilot enough for Goodson to reject him forever?
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It's definitely a "what if" I'd love to have seen, though there's a part of the Geoff-Edwards-could-have-had-Family-Feud story that's never made sense to me. He never appeared, before or after Feud launched, on anything for Goodson-Todman. Why would Goodson have been so interested in someone who had never worked for him and only for his competitors? If he liked him so much, why did he never get considered for anything else Goodson ever did? Was the one "no" to the Feud pilot enough for Goodson to reject him forever?
Why would Goodson be interested? Cause Geoff was still a good host, despite not working for the guy. Alex Trebek, IIRC didn’t work for Goodson until Concentration.
As to why he didn’t work for Goodson afterwards…well, we’re turning the corner to the 1980s, which is a revival decade for Goodson, and he still had his stable of established hosts at that point. Geoff can’t be a choice because honestly, I don’t see any G-T show from 1977-92 where he’s “best available option”.
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Alex Trebek, IIRC didn’t work for Goodson until Concentration.
"Double Dare"; 1976.
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As someone who was intimately involved with Jeopardy GOAT, let me assure you Alex’s health was anything but an issue that was in the table. The concept had been discussed during the 50th anniversary year. GSN was among the networks Harry and team pitched it to. Needless to say, it was well beyond our pocketbook (and besides, it had a shiny floor, which killed it with my superiors). The ABC station group advocated for it with the network but at the time their brass was down on game shows. As Rob Mills got more entrenched and as Sony became a reliable supplier the topic was revisited several times—other experiments got in the way. We finally found a window of budgetary opportunity on both sides in 2019. Alex’s health issues were a constant factor but that did not factor into the green light. As even he said so often, it’s the game that mattered the most.
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What if Mark Goodson gave Bruce Forsyth the job for "Card Sharks" on CBS? Would it still be a three-year run? Would there ever be a nighttime companion? Would Bob Barker even welcome Forsyth to the Price Is Right set?
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What if Mark Goodson gave Bruce Forsyth the job for "Card Sharks" on CBS? Would it still be a three-year run? Would there ever be a nighttime companion? Would Bob Barker even welcome Forsyth to the Price Is Right set?
Are you suggesting Bob Farking Eubanks is responsible for whatever level of success CS86 achieved?
When daytime game shows were still a thing in the '70s and '80s, you know what made Card Sharks successful? Giant playing cards. Tying them to a game that, while a little thin, was at least interesting enough if moved at a fast pace helped, but the gimmick was the giant cards.
Bob Eubanks was literally one day away from getting fired a month into his most well-known gig and becoming an industry footnote.
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Bob Eubanks was literally one day away from getting fired a month into his most well-known gig and becoming an industry footnote.
Somehow this managed to sneak by me. Tell me more. They were about to replace him on TNG?
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Somehow this managed to sneak by me. Tell me more. They were about to replace him on TNG?
Barris wrote about it in The Game Show King. He said that Eubanks "wasn't getting it" and that Barris was gonna fire him the next tape day, but then he came in and it was like a light turned on, and he never had a problem with him since.
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Somehow this managed to sneak by me. Tell me more. They were about to replace him on TNG?
Barris wrote about it in The Game Show King. He said that Eubanks "wasn't getting it" and that Barris was gonna fire him the next tape day, but then he came in and it was like a light turned on, and he never had a problem with him since.
Interesting! Tying that in to the thread's topic, I wonder who becomes the new host if that light doesn't turn on. Did Barris happen to mention anyone?
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Interesting! Tying that in to the thread's topic, I wonder who becomes the new host if that light doesn't turn on. Did Barris happen to mention anyone?
Nope.
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As someone who was intimately involved with Jeopardy GOAT, let me assure you Alex’s health was anything but an issue that was in the table. The concept had been discussed during the 50th anniversary year. GSN was among the networks Harry and team pitched it to. Needless to say, it was well beyond our pocketbook (and besides, it had a shiny floor, which killed it with my superiors). The ABC station group advocated for it with the network but at the time their brass was down on game shows. As Rob Mills got more entrenched and as Sony became a reliable supplier the topic was revisited several times—other experiments got in the way. We finally found a window of budgetary opportunity on both sides in 2019. Alex’s health issues were a constant factor but that did not factor into the green light. As even he said so often, it’s the game that mattered the most.
First off, let me say that between this and your take on Wheel’s “what if.” your firsthand accounts and insights have been very helpful, and I greatly appreciate it.
Regarding this, it sounds like the time window and circumstances just so happened to fall in the right place. It just felt so coincidental, between Alex’s health, James’ tournament win, and the shutdowns that were to happen two months later.
The Inquisitive One
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I’m curious who is the third challenger in a GOAT rodeo back in 2014. Perhaps an early iteration of JIT would do the trick.
Also didn’t GSN have some standard fare game shows back then?
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I’m curious who is the third challenger in a GOAT rodeo back in 2014. Perhaps an early iteration of JIT would do the trick.
We kinda got that with Jeopardy: Battle of the Decades. But if you have to choose one person, it's probably Roger Craig (who ended up being the third finalist in BotD) but you could go Chuck Forrest if you wanted representation from the old guard.
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Are you suggesting Bob Farking Eubanks is responsible for whatever level of success CS86 achieved?
Not at all. Bruce Forsyth, as popular as he was in the UK, seemed evident for him to get the CS gig because of his work on "Play Your Cards Right," but his consolation prize was ABC's Hot Streak. CS '86 and Hot Streak pilots were taped the year before. Had to believe Goodson was looking at him for his revival. Also Goodson might have liked Eubanks from his work on "Trivia Trap" the year before.
Speaking of Eubanks, he mentions how he got TNG gig in an interview for the TV Academy Foundation some years ago.
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Bruce would have been in the running when it was pondered to have couples playing in the CBS revival, not just because Mark saw Bruce on The Muppet Show.