The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Ian Wallis on July 14, 2004, 12:35:06 PM
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Since Ken has just passed the $1 million mark on "Jeopardy", this might be a good time to ponder whether he just might be the best game show contestant of all time. In order to help make a determination, let's take a look at some other memorable contestants and compare:
Thom McKee ("Tic Tac Dough", 1980)
Thom is the contestant most often compared to Ken, as he had an amazing 43-game winning streak that had to be interrupted for the summer hiatus between two seasons. Thom won over $300,000 in cash and prizes (probably comparable to a million in today's dollars) and certainly had great knowledge. He became famous during his run, as Barry-Enright ran ads for their program with his picture on them. A lot of the material Thom dealt with though was popculture oriented that arguably wasn't too hard. Plus, he didn't have to beat two other people to the buzzer.
Since "Joker's Wild" had to forceably "retire" a contestant who had a long winning streak in 1983 because of being on a CBS O&O, one wonders if Thom's run would have been allowed to go on as long as it did had they been on the CBS O&O's in 1980. Luckily, he was allowed to continue.
John Carpenter ("Who Wants to be a Millionaire", 1999)
John's probably just about the most memorable "WWTBAM" contestant because he was the first to win the million, and he did it without using any lifelines. For anyone who has gotten on the show and won the top prize (11 people now), they should be commended. I think it pales in comparison to Ken for two reasons - there are only 15 questions on "WWTBAM", and it's been stated that John's questions weren't really all that hard compared to the other contestants who have won the top prize.
Michael Larson ("Press Your Luck", 1984)
Larson's feat will never be forgotten, and what he did was pretty amazing considering that he memorized the patterns, actually got on the show and had the concentration to stop the board at the right time so many times in front of the audience and cameras. $110,000 in one show beats the second-place record by about three-to-one. However, since the questions on "PYL" are usually pretty easy, and Larson was only on for one day (OK, two days), he has to rank down on the list.
Dan Avila ("Greed", 1999)
Dan has to be included because he was the only one in the history of "Greed" that had the guts to risk $200,000 to go for the top prize of $2 million. He seems like a likable, easy-going guy who didn't let the disappointment of missing by one answer affect him on camera. He was reportedly on several other game shows, but none of those seem to be around.
John Goss, Alice Conkwright ("Sale of the Century", circa 1985)
Both John and Alice displayed great knowledge, and you'd have to at least compare them to Ken because they were competing with two other contestants they had to continuously beat to the buzzer. Both had the courage to take risks to win "Sale's" biggest jackpots, and you have to wonder how long each one could have gone on had they not been forced to retire once they won it all. However, "Sale's" questions usually weren't anywhere near as hard as "Jeopardy's" usually are.
Charles Van Doren ("Twenty-One", 1956)
No list would be complete without including arguably the most famous game show contestant of all time, Charles Van Doren. He was a very smart man who probably could have gone a long way on his own, but because willingly took part in the game show scandals of the '50s, we'll never know how far he could have gone on his own.
My concensus: Ken's the best of all time, based on the fact that "Jeopardy's" questions are usually very tough, he constantly has to beat two other people to the buzzer, is hardly ever wrong and the fact that he has done this so many times (30 wins as of this writing) and still found a way to come out on top each time. The last few shows haven't even been close - he's blowing everyone out of the water. He's answered over 1000 questions in his 30 shows - something nobody else has come close to.
Congratulations!
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This question would be way too hard, at least for me, to answer.
The ultimate test, in my opinion, would be to find most of these people, and put them on 1 show [either Millionaire or J!] just to make the comparison fair. Another idea would be to have Ken play against the other popular J! contestants [Leszek, Brad Rutter, Brian Weikle, etc] under the current rules, and see how they do. Then again, I'm a dreamer.
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Dan Avila: a 1x Jeopardy! champ on March 29, 1991: $5,300
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Jul 14 2004, 11:35 AM\'] Dan Avila ("Greed", 1999)
Dan has to be included because he was the only one in the history of "Greed" that had the guts to risk $200,000 to go for the top prize of $2 million. He seems like a likable, easy-going guy who didn't let the disappointment of missing by one answer affect him on camera. He was reportedly on several other game shows, but none of those seem to be around.
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Somebody please refresh my memory--did Avila wind up winning absolutely nothing for his GREED experience or did he emerge with something in the hopper?
Doug
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Somebody please refresh my memory--did Avila wind up winning absolutely nothing for his GREED experience or did he emerge with something in the hopper?
As I've understood it, he left with nothing, and when he came back on a million-dollar moment, he missed that too. In total, Dan's two Greed apperances earned him the sum of $0.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Jul 14 2004, 11:35 AM\']Since Ken has just passed the $1 million mark on "Jeopardy", this might be a good time to ponder whether he just might be the best game show contestant of all time. In order to help make a determination, let's take a look at some other memorable contestants and compare:
...
<snip>[/quote]
A better comparison would be against former J! champions, but the only possible comparison you can make is between Ken's first five days and their first five days. There's no way of knowing how much further the former champs might have gone if they weren't forced to retire after five days. Based on his first five days, Ken is still clearly one of the best J! players ever, but there are four former five-day champs (Chuck Forrest, Frank Spangenberg, Bob Blake, and Jerome Vered) who were so overpowering in their five days that I have to believe they would have stood an excellent chance of matching Ken's record if they hadn't had to stop after five days. There's probably another dozen or so players in the next tier that might conceivably have done as well.
Is Ken the best J! player ever? He may well be; I know I'm glad I didn't have to face him. Is there any way to know for sure? Probably not. JMHO
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Leszek, you deserve to be added to that list of four :)
(Long Live Underwood Deviled Ham Spread....from your
first regular game Final Jeopardy....)
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[quote name=\'rmfromfla\' date=\'Jul 14 2004, 05:30 PM\']Leszek, you deserve to be added to that list of four :)
(Long Live Underwood Deviled Ham Spread....from your
first regular game Final Jeopardy....)[/quote]
You are very kind, but my five-day numbers aren't good enough for that august company. Maybe in the "next tier" ....
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[quote name=\'leszekp\' date=\'Jul 14 2004, 06:38 PM\'] You are very kind, but my five-day numbers aren't good enough for that august company. Maybe in the "next tier" .... [/quote]
You sell yourself way too short.
Brandon Brooks
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I don't think this question actually has one specific answer. You could argue tons of contestants and why THEY deserve it.
I will, however, state that I do think Ken Jennings is definitely one of the best game/quiz show contestants of all time, hands down, bar none.
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[quote name=\'Leszek Pawlowicz was far too modest in saying\']You are very kind, but my five-day numbers aren't good enough for that august company. Maybe in the "next tier" .... [/quote]
I call BS. You won an average of $15,000 on a show where the typical average was $9,000 or so at the time. Even though you weren't number one that year, you WON the tournament. That means you were the very best among the champions that year. Maybe you weren't what the staff was looking for to play in the MDM tournament, but so what. You're one of the best to play the game. Wear that badge with pride.
[quote name=\'Aaron Sica said\']I will, however, state that I do think Ken Jennings is definitely one of the best game/quiz show contestants of all time, hands down, bar none.[/quote]
Golly gee whiz, Aaron. Way to go out on a limb there. :)
I'm not going to enter the ring and say whether Ken is best, because saying whether someone from eons ago is as good or better than someone who may as well have his name engraved on the lectern isn't my place.
Travis
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I think based on all the publicity J! has been receiving and the increased ratings, we may see another J! Masters Tournament or Mastermind with former game show champions sooner than later.
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' date=\'Jul 14 2004, 08:22 PM\'] Golly gee whiz, Aaron. Way to go out on a limb there. :)
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:-)
I know I belong on "Masters of the Obvious", but yeah..Hands down one of the best of all time, who definitely earned his million +.
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[quote name=\'goongas\' date=\'Jul 14 2004, 07:23 PM\'] I think based on all the publicity J! has been receiving and the increased ratings, we may see another J! Masters Tournament or Mastermind with former game show champions sooner than later. [/quote]
Or better yet, how about pitting Ken against the very brightest players that ever played their game(sans Charles Van Dorren who probabky is dead now) in Micheal Davies' creation Grand Slam next year if it ever comes to fruition/
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[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' date=\'Jul 15 2004, 04:33 AM\']
Or better yet, how about pitting Ken against the very brightest players that ever played their game(sans Charles Van Dorren who probabky is dead now) in Micheal Davies' creation Grand Slam next year if it ever comes to fruition/ [/quote]
Van Doren is still with us, but up in years and lives in semi-seclusion IIRC.
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I think the question is easy to answer now:
Yes.
The only real discussable people left in the discussion are probably Thom McKee and that 30+ game winner on Concentration or whatever.
Given the skill level of the contestants (which I think has been significantly dampened by the juggernaut in recent days, though) and the difficulty in material, I do think Ken Jennings, right now, can be considered the Greatest of All-Time (Game Show Edition).
I would not be surprised at all to see Steve rename the PotW award to the Ken Jennings PotW award... (That is, unless Jennings objects...)
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If Ken objects, then I'm insane in the membrane.
Seriously here, a better moniker award would be the Ken Jennings PotY award at the end of the calendar year. That I don't think he'll object to.
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[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 05:36 AM\'] If Ken objects, then I'm insane in the membrane.
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You said it, not us.
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[quote name=\'starcade\' date=\'Jul 15 2004, 08:24 PM\']
The only real discussable people left in the discussion are probably Thom McKee and that 30+ game winner on Concentration or whatever.
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THe all time Concentration winning streak was 22 games by Ruth Horowitz(as per the Perfessor, so take it with some grain of saffron). Unless one of the other long-running Wink TTD champs has more than 32 wins under their belt, Mckee and Salisbury are the only winning streaks in GS history longer than Ken's.
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[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 08:07 AM\'][quote name=\'starcade\' date=\'Jul 15 2004, 08:24 PM\']
The only real discussable people left in the discussion are probably Thom McKee and that 30+ game winner on Concentration or whatever.
[/quote]
THe all time Concentration winning streak was 22 games by Ruth Horowitz(as per the Perfessor, so take it with some grain of saffron). Unless one of the other long-running Wink TTD champs has more than 32 wins under their belt, Mckee and Salisbury are the only winning streaks in GS history longer than Ken's.[/quote]
I thoguth Ruth Horwitz was limited to 20 games--the limit was put in, I believe, Ralph Branca won over 20 games.
But there was only one more player after Horwitz who went the 20-game limit on the original network version.
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[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 08:07 AM\'] The all time Concentration winning streak was 22 games by Ruth Horowitz(as per the Perfessor, so take it with some grain of saffron). Unless one of the other long-running Wink TTD champs has more than 32 wins under their belt, Mckee and Salisbury are the only winning streaks in GS history longer than Ken's. [/quote]
The 22 games Herr Stosh Beverly refers to are the 20-game winning streak plus two victories in the Concentration Challenge Of Champions.
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 12:57 PM\'] The 22 games Herr Stosh Beverly refers to are the 20-game winning streak plus two victories in the Concentration Challenge Of Champions. [/quote]
I've always wanted to know: what's the story behind the "Stosh" moniker?
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 05:47 PM\'] [quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 12:57 PM\'] The 22 games Herr Stosh Beverly refers to are the 20-game winning streak plus two victories in the Concentration Challenge Of Champions. [/quote]
I've always wanted to know: what's the story behind the "Stosh" moniker? [/quote]
No big secret really. Stosh is Polish for Steve. My brother Steve inherited the nickname Stosh somehow [in the schoolyard, perhaps] and I've applied that monicker here and there to other people named Steve. Now you know. Worth the wait, wasn't it?
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Jul 19 2004, 12:57 PM\'] No big secret really. Stosh is Polish for Steve. My brother Steve inherited the nickname Stosh somehow [in the schoolyard, perhaps] and I've applied that monicker here and there to other people named Steve. Now you know. Worth the wait, wasn't it? [/quote]
And here I was hoping it was something derisive. :)
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Jul 19 2004, 05:38 PM\'] [quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Jul 19 2004, 12:57 PM\'] No big secret really. Stosh is Polish for Steve. My brother Steve inherited the nickname Stosh somehow [in the schoolyard, perhaps] and I've applied that monicker here and there to other people named Steve. Now you know. Worth the wait, wasn't it? [/quote]
And here I was hoping it was something derisive. :) [/quote]
I could call him that when I see him at the Congrefs and see if it gets his goat. Maybe Mr. Dove family man will punch me out. That'd make great press for him, wouldn't it?
Truth be told, I have no urge to seek out the man. I'll be looking for Matt, of course, and will try to snag Bob Hilton for a chat session. People will be flocking all over Bob Barker, so I'm not even going to bother with him. I do hope to make Mrs. Cullen's acquaintance, though.
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Comparing a Concentration winner to Thom and Ken is like choosing the best athlete out of Hank Aaron, Ted Williams and Joe Namath. It's fun, but you're comparing two people with similar skills to a third person with a completely different skill.
Here's a contest I'd like to see, in several stages:
1) J!, Ken vs. Thom McKee vs. John Hatten
2) Blockbusters, winner of 1) vs. other two, two games out of three. If one player wins both, he's the greatest quiz show contestant ever. If not, ...
3) ... the other two players play two out of three games of Tic Tac Dough, and the winner of that match is the greatest ever.
(This would not declare the winner to be the best game show contestant ever, only the best quiz show contestant.)
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I will say this, Jennings is one of the best Jeopardy! players that I've seen, but I think comparing him to Hatten, McKee, Larson, exc. would still be like comparing apples to orangatangs. The formats these legends mastered are comparable sometimes, but still diffrent enough that you can't really compare player A to player B to player M.
And personally, IMHO, I don't think it would be right to toss Dan Avila into the mix of that list, or at least his run on Greed, mainly because he used the assistance of a team of other players to come to a conclusion on an answer, while the other feats previously mentioned were done by one person relying on their own knowledge and only their own knowledge, and perhaps some luck sporadically. (Even though Avila did make the final decision before finalizing an answer.) Most importantly, Avila won jack-squat when he decided to attempt for the $2M, and the same result occured when he lost the $1M MDM. I'm not trying to subtract or undermine what Avila and his team did on Greed, but I don't personally think they can be included in the list of the best GS contestants of all time.
Just my oppinion, though.
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[quote name=\'uncamark\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 02:17 PM\'] I thought Ruth Horowitz was limited to 20 games--the limit was put in, I believe, Ralph Branca won over 20 games. [/quote]
Actually for Ralph Branca, no. Steve Beverly e-mailed me about that since I was curious as well.
In Hugh Downs autobiography, he did mention Ralph Branca being the all time champ, not Ruth Horowitz. However, Steve told me that books intend to have errors. According to Norm Blumenthal, Branca was on Concentration for 17 games.
Blumenthal wanted a World Series of Concentration World Series between Horowitz & Branca, but NBC passed the idea since Gilette owned the name World Series.
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[quote name=\'uncamark\' date=\'Jul 16 2004, 02:17 PM\'] I thoguth Ruth Horwitz was limited to 20 games--the limit was put in, I believe, Ralph Branca won over 20 games.
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Sorry, didn't see this before. But we're talking the same Ralph Branca as in "The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant!", yes, no, maybe?
Doug
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[quote name=\'SRIV94\' date=\'Sep 10 2004, 11:14 PM\'] Sorry, didn't see this before. But we're talking the same Ralph Branca as in "The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant!", yes, no, maybe? [/quote]
They are indeed one in the same, sir.