Final Jeopardy questions

[lobster]

[quote name=\'jalman\' post=\'181466\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 08:46 AM\']
I didn't get the Jimmy Buffet one immediately either.   I wasn't a contestant so I'm not getting worked up about it.
[/quote]
no one's getting worked up, chief.. I was just surprised at the tremendous giveaway embedded in the clue.  

If you've lived in the western world and not in a cave for at least five years, there is absolutely no reason to not know the answer to that question, and the question writers know this. Guaranteed no one on the writing staff said "this might stump 'em!"

I'm not a music aficionado, sorry.

not too much of a fan of that type of music myself, but I had just chalked that bit of trivia up to more or less the level of "This is the artist that sang Thriller".. I suppose I stand corrected .. maybe Buffet is more obscure than I thought..

[Unrealtor]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181424\' date=\'Mar 14 2008, 11:59 PM\']
Category: Food & Drink
"In 2001, a 5,861 gallon version of this drink was served up at a Jimmy Buffett-owned place in Orlando"

I mean.. ..seriously?  What's with the pattern of way-obvious giveaway clues lately?
[/quote]

As synonymous as Jimmy Buffett is with that drink, it wasn't a giveaway, since you'd have to know Jimmy Buffett. "A 5,681-gallon version of this tequila and lime drink was served up at a Jimmy Buffett-owned bar" would be a giveaway.

[lobster]

[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'181472\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 09:18 AM\']
[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181465\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 08:36 AM\']
Using your logic, would you not be surprised if someone on Jeopardy missed a question like "This is the capital of the United States"?[/quote]
Now you're being ridiculous.

...

But I can name any state capital, even if intoxicated.  I guess by your logic, however, since I wouldn't have known a pop song, wouldn't have deserved to be on Jeopardy either?
[/quote]

Eh, ok.. fair enough.. I guess what I was saying was, no matter what topics you know and don't know, there are still some understood basics in all categories that you would expect your typical Jeopardy contestant to know off the bat.. And this one in particular seemed more like a $200 question than an FJ-grade question.  Tha's all..

I don't know crap about baseball, but I can maybe answer a few basic Qs about Babe Ruth just because certain trivial facts about him have been unavoidable while living in the United States all these years later..

/opera, however, is another story..

[lobster]

I think an unwritten rule of thumb should be that FJ! questions shouldn't be guessable by 80% of the populace.. That's a good threshold  The FJ question is the pinnacle of the show.. there has to be some sort of standard the writers adhere to when crafting up that one question over all of the others used on the show..    ...right? :p

[mmb5]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181465\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 09:36 AM\']
And this question in particular is not about "ease", it's about being anyone over the age of 20 that has a pulse.  If you've lived in the western world and not in a cave for at least five years, there is absolutely no reason to not know the answer to that question, and the question writers know this.
[/quote]
I know at least two people with significant trivia knowledge who did not get the right answer when asked.  A common fallacy of any question writer is to consider anything they know too easy, and anything they do not know too hard.  Millionaire had this problem in the past with science questions.

I have played way too much quiz bowl, and this comes up all of the time.  One team will be flabbergasted that their opposition with the bonus can't reel off the second penalty killing unit of the Vancouver Canucks, yet the flabbergasted team can't name a single American Idol contestant.


--Mike

[lobster]

[quote name=\'mmb5\' post=\'181515\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 02:53 PM\']
[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181465\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 09:36 AM\']
And this question in particular is not about "ease", it's about being anyone over the age of 20 that has a pulse.  If you've lived in the western world and not in a cave for at least five years, there is absolutely no reason to not know the answer to that question, and the question writers know this.
[/quote]
I know at least two people with significant trivia knowledge who did not get the right answer when asked.  A common fallacy of any question writer is to consider anything they know too easy, and anything they do not know too hard.  Millionaire had this problem in the past with science questions.
[/quote]

good point, indeed..
but also a good question writer should be able to measure what will be deemed too easy or too hard by contestants as a whole no matter the writers' knowledge themselves.  

I know very little trivia about British Royalty, for example, but if I were to have to come up with a final-jeopardy-grade question on that topic, I would know what questions would likely be a gimmie to anyone who's even briskly studied it even though I, myself, am not knowledgeable in that area.  I wouldn't ask the contestants to name the two children of Prince Charles for example.   So you don't have to subscribe to Rolling Stone to know that Jimmy Buffett question should have been a gimmie for most people.  

And I am not trying to take aim at people here on the forum that didn't know the answer to the Buffett question, you guys have raised some fine points about other topics I do not know anything about -- but again, we're talking about FJ, and I hold that question-writing to a higher standard no matter the topic and no matter the writers' personal knowledge of the topic... shrug..

Certainly we can't expect J! question writers to be formally schooled in every topic on the planet, but when they want to mix up the bag and have a FOOD & DRINK FJ on this occasion, they honestly could have come up with a better question more fitting for FJ, is all I'm really saying ..

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181528\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 04:27 PM\']but also a good question writer should be able to measure what will be deemed too easy or too hard by contestants as a whole no matter the writers' knowledge themselves.  [/quote]
I think that's the point we're trying to make TO you.  More specifically, that the Jimmy Buffett clue was, yes, an easy one as FJ questions go, probably easier than most, but it was not the preposterous, laughable, "ridiculous" clue that you're making it out to be.  You're taking your knowledge of the subject and assuming that it's a much more common piece of information than it actually is. ("Anyone over the age of 20 that has a pulse.")

Over on Sony's Jeopardy board, one of the more fascinating things that goes on is a weekly survey of Final Jeopardy difficulty.  Each week, about 60 fans of the show indicate which ones they can (or did) answer correctly.  The result is an unscientific but interesting gauge of difficulty level.  This week's list hasn't been posted yet, but when it does, I have no doubt that the Buffett clue will be among the easiest for the week, maybe even for the season, and that there will be several very smart people out of that group who will miss it.

As I've said before, the number of members here who have written trivia questions professionally is small (best as I can tell, three have responded in this thread).  Those that do know full well how hard it is to get the balance  exactly right, and that not every question is going to be a gem.  This one certainly wasn't a gem, it just wasn't the turd you're making it out to be.

[lobster]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'181533\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 04:14 PM\']
 This one certainly wasn't a gem, it just wasn't the turd you're making it out to be.
[/quote]
i really can't think of any worse turds FJ has dropped in a good long while.. the misleading topic of "Food and Drink" makes this even more of a turd -- if you happen to be a culinary master (and you wager based on knowledge of the cat) and get this question that really doesn't have anything to do with knowledge of food & drink (and you also happen to be of those who don't know the answer), the bad category setup for the question makes it most turdworthy.  Just an opinion :d

i guess if there ever was a FJ question you would consider a true turd, there will always be someone out there insisting it was hard as crap (*rimshot*)... and this I agree with.  I just "expected more" from the almighty FJ question that I had always assumed was designed to be most difficult in the entire game.

[TLEberle]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181564\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 04:14 PM\'](and you wager based on knowledge of the cat) and get this question that really doesn't have anything to do with knowledge of food & drink [/quote] Except people aren't betting based on the category: they're betting based on their relative position in the game. And if you lead 20,000-7,000-3,000 and blow your wad because you thought the proper response might be "what is Gorgonzola?", well, you get what you deserve.

I just "expected more" from the almighty FJ question that I had always assumed was designed to be most difficult in the entire game.

Just because you expect something doesn't make it so.

[lobster]

[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'181565\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 06:30 PM\']
[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181564\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 04:14 PM\']
I just "expected more" from the almighty FJ question that I had always assumed was designed to be most difficult in the entire game.[/quote]
Just because you expect something doesn't make it so.
[/quote]

Apparently not, hence the bad FJ clue.  :p

just like opinions, we are entitled to our own expectations.. and so i guess my flaw that is being pointed out here is that i erroneously hold FJ questions to a higher standard than I should..  guilty as charged

[TLEberle]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181569\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 05:36 PM\']just like opinions, we are entitled to our own expectations.. and so i guess my flaw that is being pointed out here is that i erroneously hold FJ questions to a higher standard than I should..  guilty as charged[/quote]There is a standard to them, just like Daily Doubles: they ought to be more thought-provoking than normal clues. But sometimes they're lay-ups, and you chalk it up.

/really liked the "Due South from Miami" clue from last week.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181569\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 08:36 PM\']just like opinions, we are entitled to our own expectations.. and so i guess my flaw that is being pointed out here is that i erroneously hold FJ questions to a higher standard than I should..  guilty as charged[/quote]
No, your flaw -- in this case at least -- is twisting the arguments of others into something nobody said in an effort to try and make the rest of us look bad, all couched in what might otherwise be mistaken for an actual understanding of how you're wrong here.

[MyronMMeyer]

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181510\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 02:31 PM\']
I think an unwritten rule of thumb should be that FJ! questions shouldn't be guessable by 80% of the populace.. That's a good threshold  The FJ question is the pinnacle of the show.. there has to be some sort of standard the writers adhere to when crafting up that one question over all of the others used on the show..    ...right? :p
[/quote]

Wrong. Final Jeopardy is an outdated relic from the Art Fleming days, and has no legitimate place on the modern show.

It matters very little how hard the clue is.

(For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with you. This clue was about as hard as the Faulkner one from the day before. They were both "easier", statistically speaking, than the "due south from Miami" clue on Wednesday, I'd wager. But everyone's got gaps in their knowledge. That's why they've got 13 categories per day.)

-M

edited to add:

... the misleading topic of "Food and Drink" makes this even more of a turd...

Here I emphatically agree with you.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'MyronMMeyer\' post=\'181582\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 06:54 PM\']
Wrong. Final Jeopardy is an outdated relic from the Art Fleming days, and has no legitimate place on the modern show.[/quote]
Huh?

[lobster]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'181579\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 08:35 PM\']
[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'181569\' date=\'Mar 15 2008, 08:36 PM\']just like opinions, we are entitled to our own expectations.. and so i guess my flaw that is being pointed out here is that i erroneously hold FJ questions to a higher standard than I should..  guilty as charged[/quote]
No, your flaw -- in this case at least -- is twisting the arguments of others into something nobody said in an effort to try and make the rest of us look bad, all couched in what might otherwise be mistaken for an actual understanding of how you're wrong here.
[/quote]

Matt, you know I have a great amount of respect for you, but that is quite an unfair accusation .. I think you're somehow reading sarcasm out of my response when there was none.  There was no argument-twisting, and there's certainly no agenda to make anyone look bad; it was a sincere admission and simply my response to TLEberle saying "Just because you expect something doesn't make it so."  Point taken, I shouldn't have such expectations about Final Jeopardy as I had, for which the end result is what you quoted.  In my opinion, that is a pretty diplomatic response to his statement, what was wrong with that?