GSN wasn't the first to "pitch the niche"

[JasonA1]

I've never dipped my head into one of these inane debates, but the best answer to this would be the "identifying a game show on sight" argument because the trapping can often get ya.

Trouble is...a lot of shows sorta look like the core group but trail off into other kinds of TV shows. Love Connection, You Bet Your Life, Dating Game, Newlywed Game, I've Got a Secret and other such heavy-on-the-conversation-light-on-the-gameplay opuses wander towards talk shows. There's still some "gameplay" but the main focus is on witty (let's hope) banter among the participants.

Uhm, excuse me? You Bet Your Life, a show where two contestants answered questions posed by a host to get to a bonus round is in debate? Love Connection's presentation, granted, is VERY game show, but it's just a dating show. A talk show. Reality. Whatever you call it, it's not a game show. Fear Factor? Yes. The dressing is very reality, but it is a game show. So is Dog Eat Dog. World Series of Blackjack? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

And to say "I've Got a Secret" ever drifted close to talk show...ugh. "Newlywed Game" is also much heavier on game than "Love Connection" which as we've expressed before is NOT A GAME SHOW.

-Jason

[CaseyAbell]

And to say "I've Got a Secret" ever drifted close to talk show...ugh.

What do you mean? The game became very secondary on that show, which instead concentrated on the witty things Bill Cullen would say and the lovable-grumpy things Henry Morgan would say and the dippy things Betsy Palmer would say and the unpredictable things the contestants would say...

It drifted very much in the direction of a talk show, with a nod toward a variety show when some of the participants would perform. This isn't a negative criticism at all. In fact, IGaS is my fave among the B&W classics and got one of my votes in the GSN Feast of Favorites. I like the show exactly because it didn't take the gameplay too seriously but instead opened out into more of a talk/variety format.

Anyway, all five of the shows - IGaS, You Bet Your Life, Newlywed Game, Dating Game, and Love Connection - are in EOTVGS. That's not the final word, of course. It just indicates that the shows are very arguably game shows. Your opinion may differ, but "we" may have different opinions, too.

As I said, this is the perfect topic for Internet debate because it can never be settled. In the real world, though, things are different. If GSN ever got caught rigging Blackjack to heighten the suspense or to favor a contestant they thought would appeal to the public...well, the FCC and the media and the viewers would have little patience for a quibbling defense that it's "not really a game show." My guess is that such a defense would be met with, shall we say, derision.

Which is why GSN doesn't rig Blackjack.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'JasonA1\' date=\'Aug 25 2004, 11:04 PM\']

Trouble is...a lot of shows sorta look like the core group but trail off into other kinds of TV shows. Love Connection, You Bet Your Life, Dating Game, Newlywed Game, I've Got a Secret and other such heavy-on-the-conversation-light-on-the-gameplay opuses wander towards talk shows. There's still some "gameplay" but the main focus is on witty (let's hope) banter among the participants.

Uhm, excuse me? You Bet Your Life, a show where two contestants answered questions posed by a host to get to a bonus round is in debate? [/quote]
 Stirring the pot for a moment, I think the original point was that a show like You Bet Your Life is more about the interesting interviews with the guests than it is about the game.  Someone could make the argument that the game is completely secondary and even unimportant, yet virtually all of us consider YBYL to be "in the tent".

Listen, a one-line definition isn't ever going to work, especially when people deliberately try to pick it apart.  Heck, is Live with Regis and Kelly a game show?  There's a small quiz element mixed in with interviews.  How is that so much more different than You Bet Your Life?

I will certainly agree with you that the whole effort to pick a definition everybody's going to agree with is inane.  What bothers me is that some of you seem genuinely upset by the debate.  I just think it's goofy fun.

[Don Howard]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 08:52 AM\'] What bothers me is that some of you seem genuinely upset by the debate. [/quote]
 The only thing I'm upset about is that Face The Nation isn't an hour-long program like Tim Russert's game show, both of which Dick Cheney has been a contestant on.

[Jimmy Owen]

Face the Nation is not a game show.  It's a panel show.

[DrBear]

[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 08:52 AM\'] Face the Nation is not a game show.  It's a panel show. [/quote]
 Which brings to mind the fact that within the broad definition of "game shows" there are sub-genres:

The Panel Show (IGAS, TTTT, and you could included HS and MG7x)
The Pure-D Game Show (Concentration, Video Village, Taboo)
The Stunt Show (Beat The Clock, Almost Anything Goes)
The Quiz Show (64K?, WWTBAM, J!)

And, more recently, The Reality Show (Survivor, TAR)

You might even add The Sports Show (Gladiators)

So if you look at it in sub-genres, all could fit within the general category of "game show," with one caveat:

If it doesn't WANT to be a game show, it doesn't HAVE to be.

By the way, if Face the Nation is a panel show, Fox News is a 24-hour stunt show.

[CaseyAbell]

My reference to the anti-rigging legislation got me looking for the exact wording in the U.S. Code. Took a while but I finally tracked it down in 47 U.S.C. 509:

http://www.dinf.ne.jp/doc/english/Us_Eu/ad..._act/47/509.htm

The Feds use the phrase "a purportedly bona fide contest of intellectual knowledge, intellectual skill, or chance." They're smart enough not to use the phrase "game show."

This legislation was passed in 1960 in the wake of the rigging scandals and still uses rather archaic language like "radio stations" to describe what are clearly TV stations...unless you can "view" a radio broadcast.

"Purportedly bona fide" is an interesting phrase, no? What if I don't make any pretensions that it's a bona fide contest, as they definitely don't make in pro wrestling? Reminds me of that glimpse of a wrestling match that got slipped into "Quiz Show" as an ironic comment on the whole hoohah.

EDIT: Now that I think about that "purportedly" a little, I can see why ESPN had Chris Ferguson do his spiel on final-table deals at the WSOP. ESPN's lawyers could then argue that the network was NOT pretending to the viewers that such deals couldn't occur. The deals certainly affect the outcome because players get a pre-arranged amount of money. But we're admitting such things can happen! So we're home free on the anti-rigging legislation because we're not "purporting" that the contest is completely bona fide!

Lawyers are great. It's not a "pre-existing tournament" loophole that exempts ESPN, because section a(4) eliminates that possibility. It's the "non-purporting of a completely bona fide contest" loophole that saves the day.

Which is also why you see those disclaimers whenever GSN runs a game show pilot.

[Don Howard]

[quote name=\'DrBear\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 11:08 AM\'] By the way, if Face the Nation is a panel show, Fox News is a 24-hour stunt show. [/quote]
 What's the bonus stunt up to on Fox News Sunday this weekend? I forget the exact stunt, but I know it involves spinning.

[MikeK]

[quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 01:09 PM\'] [quote name=\'DrBear\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 11:08 AM\'] By the way, if Face the Nation is a panel show, Fox News is a 24-hour stunt show. [/quote]
What's the bonus stunt up to on Fox News Sunday this weekend? I forget the exact stunt, but I know it involves spinning. [/quote]
 I thought it was trying to stuff Bill O'Reilly's ego in a shoebox in 40 seconds.

[GS Warehouse]

[quote name=\'hmtriplecrown\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 01:21 PM\'] [quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 01:09 PM\'] [quote name=\'DrBear\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 11:08 AM\'] By the way, if Face the Nation is a panel show, Fox News is a 24-hour stunt show. [/quote]
What's the bonus stunt up to on Fox News Sunday this weekend? I forget the exact stunt, but I know it involves spinning. [/quote]
I thought it was trying to stuff Bill O'Reilly's ego in a shoebox in 40 seconds. [/quote]
 Ah, the perfect budget saver! :-)  (IMO, Fox News isn't a 24-hour stunt show; it's a 24-hour informercial for the Republican party.)

[quote name=\'Casey Abell @ Aug 26 2004\' date=\' 12:17 PM\']Lawyers are great.[/quote]That's a statement I never thought I'd see on a game show discussion group.

ObGS: Jeremy Soria always rooted against lawyers on classic Millionaire.

[pacdude]

Edited portions... italics indicates removal, underline indicates newness

Game Show: A televised event where the focus of the show is for two or more players/teams to compete in a game or competition with a set of rules and a set target for some sort of prize. A game show is usually an original creation using a format not found elsewhere, however, exceptions have come from board games. A game show places its focus mainly on the game, with usually only a minimal amount of time no more than 15% of the total time of the show placed on the contestants or the rivalry between said contestants. A game show must have some kind of emcee which interacts somehow with the contestants.

Reality shows and dating shows are not seen as game shows under this definition because the focus on reality shows is the contestants and reactions thereof, and not specifically on the game.

Sports shows are not seen as game shows under this definition because their formats can be found elsewhere (a football field, a casino, a racetrack).

I think the definition covers everything. If anyone would like to go on and expand, defend, or argue it, feel free. It feels as if I'm missing something.

[sshuffield70]

[quote name=\'GS Warehouse\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 12:58 PM\'] [quote name=\'hmtriplecrown\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 01:21 PM\'] [quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 01:09 PM\'] [quote name=\'DrBear\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 11:08 AM\'] By the way, if Face the Nation is a panel show, Fox News is a 24-hour stunt show. [/quote]
What's the bonus stunt up to on Fox News Sunday this weekend? I forget the exact stunt, but I know it involves spinning. [/quote]
I thought it was trying to stuff Bill O'Reilly's ego in a shoebox in 40 seconds. [/quote]
Ah, the perfect budget saver! :-)  (IMO, Fox News isn't a 24-hour stunt show; it's a 24-hour informercial for the Republican party.) [/quote]
 Then how do you explain all those liberals at FNC?  How about watching the damn channel for a change before going off and yapping.

[dzinkin]

[quote name=\'sshuffield70\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 03:01 PM\'] [quote name=\'GS Warehouse\' date=\'Aug 26 2004, 12:58 PM\'](IMO, Fox News isn't a 24-hour stunt show; it's a 24-hour informercial for the Republican party.) [/quote]
Then how do you explain all those liberals at FNC?  How about watching the damn channel for a change before going off and yapping. [/quote]
Actually, with all of the books its people are selling, and Bill O'Reilly's line of "No Spin" merchandise, these days Fox News is basically a 24-hour infomercial for itself.  All it's missing is Jim Caldwell.

Oh, and I can attest from firsthand experience that the biggest ego at FNC doesn't belong to O'Reilly by a long shot... but that's another topic for another day. :-)

[CaseyAbell]

A game show places its focus mainly on the game, with usually only a minimal amount of time placed on the contestants or the rivalry between said contestants.

Plenty of wiggle room for arguments with "mainly" and "usually" and "minimal." Is "minimal" ten percent of air time? Two percent? Twenty percent? Is "usually" 51% of the time, 90%, 99%? Is "mainly" related to the rain in Spain falling on the plain? Is Groucho spinning in his grave because You Bet Your Life will have to get kicked out of the EOTVGS, or maybe it gets to stay in the EOTVGS, or probably Groucho wouldn't have given a half-fart about the EOTVGS?

But hey, we like to argue. So no prob. It's just that You Bet Your Life was one of the faves of my misspent youth, and I'm a little reluctant to read it out of gameshow-dom. Because there's no doubt, as a terrific site on the show notes, that the gameplay was NOT mainly or usually the focus. In fact, it was of, er, minimal importance:

"Comedian Groucho Marx was the emcee and star of this filmed quiz show, which had begun on radio in 1947. Although it was obtensibly a quiz, the series' most important asset was the humor injected by Groucho into the interviews he did with the contestants before they had a chance to play the game. Contestants were picked primarily on the potential they had to be foils for Groucho's barbs, which they seemed to love."

For more from the site:

http://timstvshowcase.com/youbety.html

And now that I think about it, why the exception for board games? Are they somehow better than card games or parlor games? Not trying to pick a fight, just wondering why you made that particular exception.

[pacdude]

I was hesitant to put a percentage in there because I didn't have any hard facts on me. But, let's use an example...

On my episode of WoF, they spent about 2 minutes to focus on all 6 contestants (I was on a best friends week, so sue me). Doing the math from a 20 minute show, that's about 10% of a half hour show. Survivor probably takes about half the time focusing on contestants instead of the game.

And, for board games, I didn't wanna piss off the Balderdash people. :-P Actually, because there's such a large percentage of game shows past/present/future that have their premise in board games (as opposed to poker, blackjack, and pool, which I'm assuming are parlor games), I thought it well to include them as a note.

But I'm no expert; I'm just a nut who programs the stuff. :-D