Missing Master Tapes

[Ian Wallis]

We here already know about the 1972-75 Joker's Wild tapes (which were thought to be gone forever) being unexpectedly discovered at WCBS during a remodeling, as well as much of the original Hollywood Squares being found in a forgotten area at NBC Burbank. I could imagine the people at both places who found those treasures going, "HOLY MOTHER-(bleep) GOD TO HEAVEN!!!!"

Now I wouldn't be surprised if that same underground mine that holds much of the Carson "Tonight Show" secretly holds, say, the 1971-75 ABC "Password."

A few thoughts about missing master tapes:  I guess most of us have wondered exactly what's in the network's storage vaults.  Growing up, I always assumed everything a network aired they'd keep a copy of. It wasn't until I watched a few talk shows with game show personalities as guests that I realized that wasn't the case.  

It's been widely reported that NBC erased many of their old tapes in 1978, yet certain shows from before that have mysteriously "reappeared" - such as the original "Hollywood Squares".   Other shows to have been "found" include CBS "Joker's Wild" (although GSN was always thought to have the last year of this run) and "Spin-off".  

I guess as long as a show was in production, their tapes must have been still around.  Case in point:  on the final episode of the original "Jeopardy", they showed a few highlights from earlier shows, so a good portion of the 11 years of tapes must have survived until that point.

Also, the last year of "Joker's Wild" was syndicated in 1977, which led to the revival that fall.  When they had their first Tournament of Champions in late 1977, they aired clips of all the former champions they brought back, some going back as far as the first group of shows in 1972, so those must have existed until that time.  It seems odd they'd disappear after that.

I find it kind of surprising that the producers who were best at saving their shows - such as Goodson-Todman, or Barry-Enright - would allow the networks to dispose of the tapes without getting copies of them.  One wonders if all four years of "Password" still existed in 1975, or maybe the network started reusing them before the run was even over.  Whatever happened to "Showoffs", or "The Better Sex"?  For that matter, since Sony has the rights to Barry-Enright shows, where's "Hollywood's Talking" and "Blank Check"?

I guess even the best can slip up occasionally, but it just seems odd to me that so much of this stuff would just disappear, with nobody knowing it's whereabouts.

[Jimmy Owen]

My thought is that there must have been at least five tapes of every show at the outset.  Master, a copy for Eastern, copy for Pacific and one backup on each coast. In addition, there was probably an aircheck for advertisers (which is why you sometimes see old ABC commercials on FF, for example.  I'm of the opinion that no one wants to dig that hard.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 10:46 AM\']I guess as long as a show was in production, their tapes must have been still around.  Case in point:  on the final episode of the original "Jeopardy", they showed a few highlights from earlier shows, so a good portion of the 11 years of tapes must have survived until that point.[/quote]
Not necessarily.  Some producers would save highlights to reuse without any intention of saving the original, complete shows.  That's why you keep seeing a lot of the same early Carson clips (Ed Ames tomahawk, Pearl Bailey duet).  The Tonight producers would save special stuff to use on anniversary programs, and when NBC made its great purge, those clips were all that survived of the first decade.

I spoke to a former contestant on Three on a Match who was so eager to get his appearances on tape he spoke directly to Bob Stewart about it.  Stewart told him that for that particular show, they didn't keep the masters more than a few WEEKS before recycling the tapes.

The subject of finding original masters is far more complicated than you might think.  There are certainly holdings that the owners of the shows know about but which we mere collectors can't access.  There are also storage areas all over LA, NY and across the country that are stacked with unlabelled or mislabelled master tapes.  Plus, as Jimmy said, there's a huge "why bother?" factor at work here.  What good does it really do to a company's bottom line to finally discover that they've found the entire run of Blank Check?  Even something with the potential for celebrity novelty, like the lost episodes of Hollywood Squares, proved not to have commercial viability on the only cable network that would have a reason to air them.

Face it, the number of people interested in unearthing forgotten game show gems isn't very large, and the businesses whose ancient product we find so fascinating aren't going to go out of their way to find this stuff for us.

[SRIV94]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 09:27 AM\']Not necessarily.  Some producers would save highlights to reuse without any intention of saving the original, complete shows.  That's why you keep seeing a lot of the same early Carson clips (Ed Ames tomahawk, Pearl Bailey duet).  The Tonight producers would save special stuff to use on anniversary programs, and when NBC made its great purge, those clips were all that survived of the first decade.

[snapback]73662[/snapback]

[/quote]
From what I understand, any B&W clips you see of Carson come from kinescopes (as the original tapes were gone).  So even those highlights weren't officially "saved."  I read somewhere that the TV Academy had about 40 hours of color videotapes of 1960s-era Carson shows (which might explain why the "Carson gets massaged by two Japanese girls when Don Rickles ambles in" clip is in perfect, pristine color while the "Ed Ames tomahawk" clip is in grainy B&W [even though the shows aired months apart]).

Doug -- and the countdown to 1000 continues

[tvrandywest]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 07:27 AM\']... There are also storage areas all over LA, NY and across the country that are stacked with unlabelled or mislabelled master tapes...

[snapback]73662[/snapback]

[/quote]
Bingo, Matt. That is the true story, and here's how it often happens.

Even when the tapes are labelled, the production company long ago ceased to pay the storage. Sometimes it's because it's the cheapest and easiest way to be done with tapes no longer wanted, sometimes it's because the person responsible for keeping track of such things moves to another job, retires or dies, leaving sketchy or no records of tapes placed is storage several decades earlier.

The storage facilities often keep the tapes despite the fact that nobody has paid for storage in years, sometimes hoping that the bill may ultimately be paid, or because it's easier to just keep the tapes where they are rather than box 'em up and dump them when the space isn't needed. Trying to locate the rightful owner of the product after years of mergers and acquisitions can be an incredibly time consuming issue that can result with a "so what" from the new owner when finally located and contacted by the storage facility. At best, it's an "asset" of dubious value.

The one person who deserves "props" for talking with librarians at storage facilities about mis-labelled tapes that have languished for decades is GSN's David Schwartz. As his employer, Sony has ultimately come to be the rightful owner of some of the lost material, and because he's passionate about the product, David is responsible for some of the best "finds" in recent years.


Randy
tvrandywest.com

[14gameshows]

Jimmy Owen Posted Today, 10:02 AM
  My thought is that there must have been at least five tapes of every show at the outset. Master, a copy for Eastern, copy for Pacific and one backup on each coast. In addition, there was probably an aircheck for advertisers (which is why you sometimes see old ABC commercials on FF, for example

That is what I would think as well, as to why I brought this up a few weeks ago about Password II.  If Goodson-Todman preserved the majority of their properties, even preserving Winner Take All, Password II and a few others might just be missing.  Also the argument comes up about the cost of video tapes back in the day.  True they were probably more expensive than now, however a company like Goodson-Todman could pay for them.  If you take all the shows from the time that G-T started (gameshows, non-gameshows) up to 1975, they (G-T) had tons of tapes stored in a vault, also a lot of their shows were syndicated at the time to, so it's not like G-T could get the tapes from the networks, those tapes had to come from out of pocket or the syndicator's budget.  

Then you get, "Well ABC reused Password's tapes for Family Feud/The Better Sex".  I still dont see how and why Goodson or even Todman for the matter allow such to happen.  

Bottom line, personally, and I could be wrong, if you look at the CBS run of TJW, the NBC run of HS, and how for years many thought they were gone and now they are all intact, I believe that those missing Password tapes are intact too, but actually missing; as to what vault it is located in.  

Wouldn't office files and documents at The Goodson Estate have the location of everything and where everything is located.  Also could it be possible that the executive producer/producer/director of Password know where those things are.  I would think they would have insight of where their work is located.  

I would think that the producers/director of FF (Howard Felsher & Paul Alter) would know what and if their show was being recorded over another G-T property.  At least Stu Phelps and Ira Skutch would be notified.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 12:46 PM\']The one person who deserves "props" for talking with librarians at storage facilities about mis-labelled tapes that have languished for decades is GSN's David Schwartz. As his employer, Sony has ultimately come to be the rightful owner of some of the lost material, and because he's passionate about the product, David is responsible for some of the best "finds" in recent years.[/quote]
Oh, absolutely, props to David. (Who lurks here, BTW.  Hi, David!)  You guys would be surprised at  how much of the rare stuff you've seen came from his legwork.

Of course, what you've seen is only a fraction of it.  FINDING the rarities is one thing.  But you've also got to convince the owner (or somebody) that it's worth converting the kines or 2" tapes or whatever obsolete format this stuff's on into something a little more modern.  And it's not cheap.  

Hollywood Squares is a good example.  They found thousands of episodes, but only a small number of those have been transferred, the ones you've seen on GSN.  Thousands more are just sitting there, found but not viewable, because no one's going to pony up ridiculous amounts of money to do the work without a market for it.

So that's sort of a third category.  Stuff that we know about but can't see.  A lot of syndicated shows would fall into that category, most infamously (as far as I'm concerned) Cullen's Pyramid.

[Dbacksfan12]

[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:36 PM\'] A lot of syndicated shows would fall into that category, most infamously (as far as I'm concerned) Cullen's Pyramid.
[/quote]
Have the rights issue been cleared about this?  My recollection tells me the last time this issue was brought up, there was some mess with Viacom regarding the show.

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'Modor\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 02:41 PM\'][quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:36 PM\'] A lot of syndicated shows would fall into that category, most infamously (as far as I'm concerned) Cullen's Pyramid.[/quote]Have the rights issue been cleared about this?  My recollection tells me the last time this issue was brought up, there was some mess with Viacom regarding the show.[/quote]
My point is that we know they're there, whatever the reasons for them not seeing the light of day.  For other shows from the same general era, like The Better Sex, we don't even know whether they survive today.

[Ian Wallis]

I guess another question might be what happened to the tapes over the years?  If thousands of "Hollywood Squares" tapes were discovered, what about the other NBC games of that time frame, especially Heatter-Quigley's "High Rollers" - doesn't it seem logical that it should have been stored in the same place?  If "Joker's Wild" and "Spin-off" were found together, what about shows like "Hollywood's Talking" or the original "$10,000 Pyramid", which were on the same network at the same time?  

Or maybe over the years whenever they needed space, they'd pick one specific series to jettison leaving the others intact.

[Ian Wallis]

Wouldn't office files and documents at The Goodson Estate have the location of everything and where everything is located

All we know is that GSN transferred everything from the Goodson library that they had.  If "Password II" does still exist, it would seem even the Goodson estate doesn't know its whereabouts.

[chris319]

Or maybe over the years whenever they needed space, they'd pick one specific series to jettison leaving the others intact.

2" quad tape is a relic of a bygone era. Nowadays the storage space is literally more valuable than the raw stock. You run a tape vault, you need storage space, you haven't heard from the production company in over a decade because the principals are dead, the heirs don't care and the company has merged, you haven't been paid during that time, there is little if any value to old tapes of Blank Check, and you need storage space. What would you do?

[14gameshows]

Didn't ABC change some locations of some of its facilities in the 70s?  I heard that old studios that had LMAD, and Feud as its clients are no longer there, or is it the studio that hosted $10,000 Pyramid and now there's an Elementary School there?  

Wow, if GSn transferred what all G-T had then, maybe the rumors might be true about Password, however can it be confirmed though.  If there's a confirmation from a very trusted source then maybe the rumors can be put to rest.

[TwoInchQuad]

There **are** a few extant episodes of the ABC Password, from 1972, 1973 and the well-circulated 1975 eps, but it certainly is true that the bulk of what may still be out there evidently remains pretty well hidden.

-Kevin

[pyl85]

Hollywood Squares is a good example. They found thousands of episodes, but only a small number of those have been transferred, the ones you've seen on GSN. Thousands more are just sitting there, found but not viewable, because no one's going to pony up ridiculous amounts of money to do the work without a market for it.

I find this a bit hard to believe. I mean, HS was an incredibly popular show at one point, right? I was surprised reading Peter Marshall's book and seeing the impressive list of talent that appeared on the show. Like what about a market for the shows with famous athletes? I mean Gordie Howe was on HS, Gordie Howe! With people like me starving for anything hockey related, I think there might be a market for it. Come on, if they think there's a market for My Big Fat Obnoxious Ratings Bomb.

-Greg