The Joker's Jackpot

[Don Howard]

If The Joker's Wild were to return as a straight quiz [none of that dingbat definition providing] would you prefer a car be given away (a 2005 Buick Skylark if there is such a thing or something of equal low-end value) for five wins or an amount of money in a Joker's Jackpot that would increase daily?

[FeudDude]

[quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 12:00 AM\']If The Joker's Wild were to return as a straight quiz [none of that dingbat definition providing] [/quote]

Blasphemy!  Must I remind you again that TJW is a game of definitions?

would you prefer a car be given away (a 2005 Buick Skylark if there is such a thing or something of equal low-end value) for five wins or an amount of money in a Joker's Jackpot that would increase daily?

[snapback]79868[/snapback]

I'd go for the jackpot.  Cash seems to be the in thing nowadays, and growing jackpots are, IMHO, a great way to maintain viewer interest.  I think now would be a good time for a new TJW/TTD hour, seeing that two of Sony's talk shows are getting the axe, and Ken Jennings fever still hasn't died down.

(Oh and for the record, the Buick Skylark has been out of production for several years.)

[BrandonFG]

The jackpot idea was interesting, and added a nice risk factor for the contestants. IIRC, didn't the contestants forfeit their winnings if they lost a game before getting the jackpot?

Or was it like 21, where the new champion's winnings were deducted from the old champ's final total?

[Gus]

FeudDude's mention of a TTD/TJW hour had me entertaining the idea of a revival of TTD. Allow me if you will to hijack this TJW thread and turn it into a dumping ground for my thoughts of a TTD revival. One might also refer to this as a "proposal," a term for which I don't particularly care due to my own idiosyncrasies...

MAIN GAME

Challenger X vs Champion O. (I think in the original, X was the champion, but here I indend to develop a motif of the X as a block, stopping the progress of the O, which will become more apparent when I describe the bonus game.)

Captured squares have value that increase the pot, like in the original, but lik so: middle blocks on the edge rows, $200; corner blocks, $300; center block, $500 (and a two-part response, like the original.) The reasoning for differing values: middle edge blocks can be part of two tic-tac-toes (horiz/vert); corners, three (horiz/vert/diag); the center, four (horiz/vert/two diags). Winner takes the pot and plays the bonus game. Tie games start a new game, with the pot carrying over.

Players play at least two games, and a maximum of twenty, and every game is versus a different challenger. A waiting list is established for figuring out the next challenger, that being the highest on the list that makes fit the criteria for all involved; if none on the list would apply, dive into the contestant pool. The viewer need not worry, for all this figuring and stuff would be done my the producers; on-air, they'd just bring out the next player, and announce that it's their first or second game, and prior winnings if any. (Yes, you can be a champion, win a few games, lose one, then come back when it's your turn and win some more. Point is, you lose twice or win twenty, whichever comes first.) Players winning no games take home $500 consolation.


BONUS ROUND

No more pure-luck evade-the-dragon type game; This one is, in my mind, an excellent combination of knowledge, strategy, risk, and viewer tension. The blocks are assigned categories; unlike in the front game, these don't shuffle. The player picks a square, is asked a question. Get it right, an O goes up in your favor. Get it wrong, an X goes up as a block. Each Tic-Tac-Dough made pays off in a table described below. Also, the X's are seen as strikes; three strikes, you win nothing; for this reason, after amassing two strikes, the option is available to quit and take your winnings rather than risk answering another question wrong. Paytable for TTDs:

1: $500
2: $1000
3: $2500
4: $5000
5: $10,000
6: $25,000
7: (I don't think it's possible to get just 7)
8: Jackpot ($50,000+$1000 for each strike amassed since the last jackpot win)

I think there's a great deal of strategy here, having to figure out how ot get so many TTDs, but also risk, for knowing the categories for the questions beforehand, and whether you're good in them.


HOST: Not my jurisdiction. If it were, I think Wink would enjoy a second go. (On that note, whose jurisdiction would it be? Producer's? Sony's?)
THEME TUNE: Also not my jurisdiction. (Again, whose?)
STRADDLING: I think it'd kinda have to. No double-runs here, I'm afraid.


Values can easily be adjusted to fit budget, etc. Still very much a work in progress, not final by any means. Some folks may be turned off by the double-elim bit; I think it's easy to understand, but hard to describe succinctly. Questions, comments, and constructive criticism are welcomed.

EDIT: A thought about the bonus round: If you've answered eight questions already, a strike on the very last question results in an automatic total loss, regardless of the number of strikes already up.

[clemon79]

[quote name=\'Gus\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 12:04 AM\']Captured squares have value that increase the pot, like in the original, but lik so: middle blocks on the edge rows, $200; corner blocks, $300; center block, $500 (and a two-part response, like the original.)
[/quote]
Can you explain this to the folks at home in under 30 seconds and have it be sensible? If not, scrap it.

No more pure-luck evade-the-dragon type game; This one is, in my mind, an excellent combination of knowledge, strategy, risk, and viewer tension.

If by that you mean "overly long and not at all different from the maingame", yes.

Some folks may be turned off by the double-elim bit; I think it's easy to understand, but hard to describe succinctly.

Which means you shouldn't be doing it.

Next.

[TLEberle]

On the original 1972 version of the Jackpot, if you won a game, but later met defeat, you gave back all of the cash winnings into the Jackpot.  Apparently, it was hard enough to win four games that it got to $14,000 or more before being won.  Any prizes were safe, though.

[SplitSecond]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 12:09 AM\'][quote name=\'Gus\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 12:04 AM\']Captured squares have value that increase the pot, like in the original, but lik so: middle blocks on the edge rows, $200; corner blocks, $300; center block, $500 (and a two-part response, like the original.)
[/quote]
Can you explain this to the folks at home in under 30 seconds and have it be sensible? If not, scrap it.
[/quote]
Don't take my writing this language as actually approving of the rationale behind the scoring.  That said, here goes:

"Capturing the center box adds $500 to the pot, the corner boxes add $300 each, and the rest of the boxes are worth $200."

For what it's worth, if you merge the "create-as-many-tic-tac-toes-as-you-can" with the timed true-false celebrity quiz element of the final H2 end game, you basically have the H2 end game as it was originally developed.  

Minus the element of time pressure, this proposed TTD end game has no element of risk, save for the tacky Grand Game-esque patch Gus provided for 8 right followed by 1 wrong.  What happens with 7 right followed by 2 wrong?  How do you explain how many possible TTD's are left, thereby explaining what the maximum a player could still win after a strike(s)?

By and large, an end game that requires referring to a payout table isn't a very good television end game.

[Gus]

[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 02:09 AM\'][quote name=\'Gus\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 12:04 AM\']Captured squares have value that increase the pot, like in the original, but lik so: middle blocks on the edge rows, $200; corner blocks, $300; center block, $500 (and a two-part response, like the original.)
[/quote]
Can you explain this to the folks at home in under 30 seconds and have it be sensible?

[snapback]79879[/snapback]

[/quote]

"The game is Tic-Tac-Toe, and each square has a category; select a category, answer the question right, and your letter goes in the block, plus the value of the square goes in the pot: edge blocks are worth 200, corner blocks 300, and the center block 500. Answer wrong and your opponent gets a chance to steal. Tic-Tac-Dough, three-in-a-row wins the game and the pot, and the winner gets to play our bonus round for a chance at our jackpot worth more than $50,000." (Accompained by the appropriate visuals as well.)

I clocked myself at eighteen seconds. Wink or someone would probably be able to get it in fifteen.

How'd he explain it in the original run?

[quote name=\'clemon79\'][quote name=\'Gus\']No more pure-luck evade-the-dragon type game; This one is, in my mind, an excellent combination of knowledge, strategy, risk, and viewer tension.[/quote]
If by that you mean "overly long and not at all different from the maingame", yes.[/quote]

Is being similar to the main game a bad thing?

Also, I wouldn't be the one standing up there telling everyone how it's played; someone else would write the description, and it'd likely be many times shorter and much more easily understood than mine. I find that I tend to be a little too verbose; I also tried to cram every last detail into one paragraph, which likely wouldn't be entirely necessary. This is just to get it all out there.

And in retrospect, that sentence does kinda sound like a pitch. Kinda.

[quote name=\'clemon79\'][quote name=\'Gus\']Some folks may be turned off by the double-elim bit; I think it's easy to understand, but hard to describe succinctly. [/quote]
Which means you shouldn't be doing it.[/quote]

Well, I might not, then! ;-) Again, I tried to cram every last detail into one paragraph, which would likely not be entirely necessary to describe as such.

[TLEberle]

Is there a particular reason to have the corner and non-corner boxes worth different amounts?  The nice thing about the 200/300 from the original show was that it was two amounts, easy enough for the viewer to get.

That double eliminatinon thing would be done easier as "You stay on our show until you win 20 games, or lose twice."  None of this playing, then resting, then playing again.

And $25,000 is WAY too much to offer to a loser of the bonus game.

I would love to see Tic Tac Dough come back, but not like this.

[Gus]

[quote name=\'SplitSecond\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 02:43 AM\']For what it's worth, if you merge the "create-as-many-tic-tac-toes-as-you-can" with the timed true-false celebrity quiz element of the final H2 end game, you basically have the H2 end game as it was originally developed.

[snapback]79881[/snapback]

[/quote]

I never saw H2, so there was no intent to copy anything.

[quote name=\'SplitSecond\']By and large, an end game that requires referring to a payout table isn't a very good television end game.
[/quote]

Well, then, ditch the paytable, have everything double: (Works pretty well for IITB, I think):

1: $1000
2: $2000
3: $4000
4: $8000
5: $16,000
6: $32,000
8: Jackpot

[quote name=\'SplitSecond\']Minus the element of time pressure, this proposed TTD end game has no element of risk, save for the tacky Grand Game-esque patch Gus provided for 8 right followed by 1 wrong.  What happens with 7 right followed by 2 wrong?  How do you explain how many possible TTD's are left, thereby explaining what the maximum a player could still win after a strike(s)?[/quote]

Well, the contestant chooses which blocks to go with, so it's not just a matter of number of questions, it also relies heavily on board layout. Example:

[font=\"Courier\"]OOO
OOX
O O[/font]

Contestant currently has 4 TTDs, for $8,000. He can:

-Quit with $8,000
-Try and answer that last question, which happens to be a subject he knows he's not very good at. He either
--Gets it wrong, and wins nothing.
--Gets it right, and completes two more TTDs to win $32,000

I think that'd make good TV. At least okay TV. As I said, still a work in progress.

[Gus]

[quote name=\'TLEberle\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 02:55 AM\']Is there a particular reason to have the corner and non-corner boxes worth different amounts?  The nice thing about the 200/300 from the original show was that it was two amounts, easy enough for the viewer to get.

[snapback]79883[/snapback]

[/quote]

My reasoning was that the corners are more valuable than the edge blocks, just as the center block is more valuable than any of the others. More valuable = more value. I liked the idea, but it can easily be done without.

[quote name=\'TLEberle\']And $25,000 is WAY too much to offer to a loser of the bonus game.
[/quote]

Who said they lost? I described a possible scenario in my last post, and I think you'd either have to be really smart or really risky to get to even that point. My thought was to use tougher questions in general for the bonus round than the main game.

Also, I'd rather see more feedback on the core concept of the bonus game. Values can be easily changed.

EDIT: Also note that strange thoughts occur to insomniacs. ;-)

SECOND EDIT: The phrase came in the edit first, then I put it in the sig. Because I liked it so much. See first edit. ;-) I'm going to bed.

[WilliamPorygon]

Well, I like some of your ideas Gus, but personally, I like the TTD revival idea I came up with better.  It's more suited to today's standards, with no straddling and an end game that incorpoates the infamous dragon without being a pure luck-of-the-draw game.  I'll post it here, though I know a lot of you hardcore TTD fans are going to tear me apart...

FRONT GAME:
Much of the standard: two players, 9 categories consisting of 7 blue "normal" and two red "special" categories, $200 for outer boxes and $400 for center boxes (which are harder, often 2-part questions).  Categories shuffled after each turn, only get the box on a right answer or stealing from opponent in some red categories.

The main difference is that the scoring format is more like H2 — each correct answer adds the amount of the box to the answering player's score in front of them, as well as to a pot that is used for the bonus round.  Getting Tic-Tac-Dough wins $1000 and adds that amount to the pot, a tie game wins each player $500 and adds that much to the pot.

SPEED-UP ROUND:
Like H2, the same two play for the whole show until time runs out.  If time runs out mid-game, a series of jump-in questions is played to fill out the remaining squares from the top left to the bottom right (any questions not answered correctly by either player means the square ends up unoccupied).  If time runs out at the end of a game, the speed round is played for 9 questions starting from a blank board.  Either way, the speed round continues until all the squares have had a chance to be played, even after a Tic-Tac-Dough has been made.  The questions are $200 each.  If multiple Tic-Tac-Doughs occur on the board they all pay off $1000 each; no money is paid for a tie after the speed round.  (This allows for come-from-behind wins.)

The player with the most money after the speed round wins the game and goes to the bonus round.  (I guess only the winner keeps the cash and the loser gets a consolation prize, though I don't particularly like that...)  In the event of a tie one more jump-in question determines the winner.

BONUS ROUND:
The bonus round consists of 8 squares numbered 1-8 clockwise from the top left, and a Dragon in the middle.  A category is revealed; this is the category for all questions in the bonus game.  A clock is set for 45 seconds.  The player calls a box number and a question is read.  If the player answers correctly they get their symbol in the box, if incorrect a Dragon appears in the box, blocking it, and the pot is reduced by half.  

If the player can make a Tic-Tac-Dough, they win the money remaining in the pot.  The player loses if time runs out or it is no longer possible to make Tic-Tac-Dough, and gets a consolation prize of $200 per each of their symbol on the board.

I'd prefer returning champions, though most shows don't do that anymore...

[dmota104]

[quote name=\'Don Howard\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 12:00 AM\']If The Joker's Wild were to return as a straight quiz [none of that dingbat definition providing] would you prefer a car be given away (a 2005 Buick Skylark if there is such a thing or something of equal low-end value) for five wins or an amount of money in a Joker's Jackpot that would increase daily?

[snapback]79868[/snapback]

[/quote]

Hmmm... how about a compromise?

Give a car away for every fifth consecutive win.  But leave the escalating jackpot to the "face the devil" bonus game.

[sshuffield70]

I've thought about both of these the last few days.  I know for the TTD main game, I'd like to see a steal element, and the boxes should be either 200/300 or 300/500.  I'm not sure what the bonus game should look like.  I'd favor something akin to either the '78 CBS run or the '90 run (do not panic, however, there will not be a rappin' dragon or a rappin' dragonslyer.)

As for TJW, I have a better idea.  There was nothing fundamentally wrong with the '90 run.  I think, though, making it "a game of definitions" (as we have constantly lampooned here) was a mistake.  I'd like to see it as a rapid-fire straight trivia quizzer, with two timed rounds of play for three players.  You could then put a car on the bonus wheels and start a jackpot at $20,000.

Of course, YMMV.

[BrandonFG]

[quote name=\'TLEberle\' date=\'Mar 30 2005, 02:09 AM\']On the original 1972 version of the Jackpot, if you won a game, but later met defeat, you gave back all of the cash winnings into the Jackpot.  Apparently, it was hard enough to win four games that it got to $14,000 or more before being won.  Any prizes were safe, though.

[snapback]79880[/snapback]

[/quote]

OK, got it. Thanks. And for beating Horan to the punch, here's $5. :-)